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What does happiness mean at its core? It might seem like a simple question to answer. For me, happiness is seeing my children smile or laugh or having the chance to exercise with loved ones in the morning. However, happiness is much more complex than these moments. Each person has their own unique definition of happiness, but here’s a secret: I don’t actively pursue happiness. Instead, I seek peace. I feel most content when the world around me is serene, knowing that my children, Laird, and my friends are generally doing well. They don’t have to be perfect or constantly cheerful. What matters is that they are chasing their dreams and are safe and secure. As long as I have this assurance and a good morning workout, I find inner peace.

In this episode, I’m engaging in a conversation with Arthur C. Brooks about his new book, “Build the Life You Want: The Art and Science of Getting Happier.” Whether you prioritize happiness, peace, love, passion, or any other measure of fulfillment, there will be moments that challenge your chosen path. These challenges can arise on an ordinary Monday without being catastrophic. There will be instances of heartbreak, despair, tragedy, and anxiety that shake our understanding of ourselves and life’s purpose. If you’re currently navigating such dark times, this discussion will introduce practices you can implement today to preserve and cultivate happiness, peace, or love during these trying periods.

Daily life itself can pose difficulties for many of us as we navigate the complexities of being human. Arthur’s insights can provide valuable tools to help you maintain control over your reactions in any situation, supporting you wherever you are on your journey.

Resources Mentioned:

• Build the Life You Want: The Art and Science of Getting Happier
• www.arthurbrooks.com
• www.GabrielleReece.com
• @gabbyreece

Show Sponsors:

Time Stamps:

• 00:00:00 – 00:05:00 – Introduction and Background
• 00:05:01 – 00:15:00 – The Science of Happiness
• 00:15:01 – 00:25:00 – Challenges in Healthcare and Society
• 00:25:01 – 00:35:00 – Technology’s Impact on Life
• 00:35:01 – 00:45:00 – Cultural Shifts and Societal Happiness
• 00:45:01 – End – Everyday Practices for Personal Happiness

Show Transcript:

Arthur, thank you for coming all this way. I know you just got stuck on the PCH. It’s okay.

[00:09:05] Arthur Brooks: It’s a beautiful place to be stuck. Nice to see you, Gabby.

[00:09:07] Gabby: It is. It’s I’m nice to see you in person. The last time I talked to you, we talked about strength to strength, your last book, which I would listen to riding up this hill.

That you just came up. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:09:17] Arthur Brooks: On your bike.

[00:09:17] Gabby: On my bike. On my standup bike.

[00:09:19] Arthur Brooks: That’s a big hill to come up.

[00:09:21] Gabby: It is. I went slow. I’ll be honest. I wasn’t. There was no speed deeming.

[00:09:27] Arthur Brooks: Oh man. That’s, that’s a hill. That’s the Ladigo Canyon. That’s.

[00:09:32] Gabby: Yeah. It’s great. And now you’ve gone big. You, you did this book. I’m, you know, it’s so funny. Uh, build the life you want. I know it says with Oprah Winfrey, but it made me feel like you probably went and interviewed her and then. Tried to sort of put down to paper some of the concepts how

[00:09:48] Arthur Brooks: well it was a little different that so She she proposed book idea, which was great Yeah It took me one second to decide that was a good idea to write a book with Oprah and she said if I still had My show I would have had you on 30 times to talk about the science of happiness, but I don’t have my show anymore So how about if I host a book?

So what do you mean host a book? She’s hosting the book. So she wraps around the chapters, she writes introductions, all that, and so you can kind of see how she would have been interviewing me on the couch on her show back in the day. You know, the show that we all grew up with. And it was great. I have to say, you know, we planned the thing out at her house up, you know, right up the road here and she lives in Montecito and, and it was a wonderful experience I have to say because it brought up, she brought up the best and everything.

She came up with a whole bunch of new concepts that I’d never thought of before that kind of wrap up these ideas that I do as a scientist. She said, is the goal happiness? And I said, no, you can’t have a goal of happiness because you can’t get happiness in this life. She said, so the goal is what?

Happierness? I said, that’s exactly right. I’ve been doing it for 30 years. So that’s the magic of Oprah actually. And that’s how, that’s how the, you know, the book actually came to be between the two of us, same mission, lift people up and bring them together in bonds of happiness and love, but with her talent, with language and people and reaching new audiences and, and the stuff that I teach at Harvard, it was, it was a nice combination.

[00:11:09] Gabby: You have an interesting background and the tagline is the art and science of getting happier. And I thought with your background as a French horn musician, legit, uh, and then now Harvard and educator and you write extensively on this topic and others, what was the impetus for combining this idea?

Because it sort of reminds me of we’re navigating. This art of being happy and the science of our biological selves. And so I w I thought it was really an interesting approach. Why did you combine that?

[00:11:48] Arthur Brooks: It has to do with the fact that love and happiness, which is what we all want, are what we would say is a complex problem.

And a complex problem means that it’s really easy to understand and it’s impossible to solve. All the important things in life are complex. Like, you know, a football game is complex, a war is complex, but love and happiness are complex. Meaning you know what you want, but you don’t know how to get it. All the tech stuff, all the engineering stuff in life, those are complicated problems.

I’m not splitting hairs here. Those are problems are really, really hard to solve. But with enough computational horsepower and brain power, you can solve the problems once and for all. The problem in life is that we’re proposing complicated solutions to complex problems. Are you lonely? Do you want love?

Here’s Facebook, right? That kind of thing. It doesn’t work, right? It doesn’t work. The truth is, if you want to be a happier person, you need to understand happiness and then you need to do a lot of interesting, sometimes complex, sometimes complicated things. It’s both art and science is what it comes down to because art is complex and science is complicated.

[00:12:48] Gabby: What’s easier for people to accept?

[00:12:52] Arthur Brooks: It’s easier to accept complicated because then, you know, then we just turn it over to tech and engineering and Silicon Valley and, and throw a bunch of money at it and you know, the jet propulsion lab or whatever. And then, and then we’ll all be happy. Right, Gabby? Not so much.

Not so much. I mean, the truth is we, we want the same things today that we wanted thousands of years ago, which is we want to be with the people that we love. We want to feel valued. We want to understand the why of our lives. We want to know what happens if we could, or at least have a theory about what happens after we die.

These are the big questions of life and death. And, and, and there’s no amount of tech that’s going to solve that for us.

[00:13:28] Gabby: Yeah, and we were, we were just outside with Laird and Rick Rubin, who just randomly is here.

[00:13:34] Arthur Brooks: Just dropped by the house.

[00:13:36] Gabby: No, it’s a, it’s, you know, him and Laird have this interesting friendship and, but the point is, is when we were there where you, you said something I think is really important and you say it throughout your book, which is, is we have to get small.

[00:13:48] Arthur Brooks: Yeah. Yeah, it’s the key. And it’s a funny thing because mother nature wants us to be huge in our own psychodrama, right? Cause your life is drama and you’re the star. And mother nature wants you to be intensely focused on the Eunice. I mean, it’s like, it’s like all Gabby all the time. The problem is that’s misery.

Why? Because it’s like, it’s my lunch and my show and, you know, my money and my commute and me, me, me. It’s just, it’s like watching the same episode of the same show over and over and over again, but Mother Nature doesn’t care. Mother Nature doesn’t care if you’re happy. She wants you to survive and pass on your genes.

Happiness, or happierness, that’s your business. You know, here’s the thing. I mean, you can take the animal path of survival and passing on your genes, and focus on yourself all the time, or you can take the more divine path. Some would say the more human path where you stand up to mother nature and to do that, you have to do some very counterintuitive things, primary among them, get smaller, make the universe bigger, dedicate yourself to seeing the majesty of what’s going on around us as opposed to intensely focusing on yourself.

And there’s a lot of neuroscience behind this. I mean, this is what I, this is what I do in my scientific work, but the, the cosmic elements of it are pretty obvious too.

[00:15:01] Gabby: You’re taking an important trip to you. You’ve written many times about the importance of even going to India for you and, um, you have, you’re having the opportunity to, you’ve spent time with the Dalai Lama.

And obviously that’s an extreme practice, uh, and a, a beautiful opportunity. What are some of the things that if I lived on a city block, you’re, you’re going across and, and, uh, being with a source, but if, if I’m, if I’m sort of like, Hey Arthur, I, I work long days and I, maybe I have a couple of kids are, what are just daily, what are So the other thing I think people don’t realize is the power of just a little bit, a little bit, a little bit building upon into this wonder, into awe, into the other practice away from our biology.

[00:15:55] Arthur Brooks: Yeah. So that’s a good question. And the answer is to do something and to do it every day. It’s what it comes down to, like, you know, anytime that somebody asks your advice or my advice about how to get fit, how to get healthy, it’s don’t, okay, you don’t, you’re not going to fix a problem in 72 hours. It doesn’t matter how extreme you are.

It’s not going to happen. You’re not going to this week or even this month solve problems that you’ve been, you’ve been creating for the past 20 years. You need to practice for a little by little by little, you change the way that you live. And the same thing is true with your, with your. your soul. The same thing is true with your spirit that you need to practice every single day.

So yeah, tomorrow I’m going to the Himalayas. I recommend it, but not everybody can do it, right? You know, it’s not, you can’t go see the Dalai Lama every day. But it doesn’t matter. I mean the Dalai Lama would be the first one to say that that’s not the way to actually find inner peace. The way to find inner peace is to build the protocols of inner peace into your life.

He talks about actually how anybody can do it. You know you’ve got a couple of kids. You know you’re trying to live your life from day to day. Number one is you need a base of what you actually believe. You need to take the time to interrogate yourself. What do I believe? Most people never even ask themselves that.

What are the things that I believe to be right and wrong? What are the things that are really non negotiable? What are my values? Then on top of that, people need a contemplative practice. So maybe that’s studying the Stoic philosophers with intention. Maybe that’s walking before dawn for an hour. The, the, the Indians, the Hindus call that the Brahma Muhurta, which is known as the creator’s time.

It’s an hour and a half before dawn when it’s cold and quiet and, and you’re by yourself. And I recommend that, you know, people get started on a practice by, by just getting up an hour and a half before dawn and going for a walk without devices. And if it’s cold, better. Yeah. Right. Right. And, and some people will study the fugues of Johann Sebastian Bach and find the grand, the, you know, the grand nature of the universe. And that some people will do a Vipassana meditation practice. And some people, you know, like me, I’m a Catholic. It’s really important to me. It’s, and, and it’s the faith of my youth and, and, and, and, and it, I’m telling you, it works.

Why? Because that’s the practice on top of the, on top of the values. And then last but not least is a little bit of wisdom. You know, read something every day, learn something every day, learn something that you don’t have to know, but really enriches your soul every single day. And there’s a million things you can do.

I have a, a reading list for the wisdom practice on my website, as a matter of fact, so people can just go there and throw a dart onto the list and start reading one of these things. And those three things together is a good place to start no matter where you are in life.

[00:18:27] Gabby: And I feel like with the busyness of technology. I have three daughters. Um, the older two are read their adults and the youngest one is, you know, she’s still a teenager. It’s there. And in a way it’s like reading isn’t so part of their culture outside of what they have to was required from school where when I was younger, you, that’s how you.

[00:18:50] Arthur Brooks: Got information.

[00:18:50] Gabby: Yeah, and or you were entertained even.

[00:18:52] Arthur Brooks: Yeah,

[00:18:53] Gabby: You read so with the with the lack of reading and then the The addition of the phone and it made me think too when you talk about walking alone the sound Mm hmm in the morning when you walk alone that sound listening. It’s your feet on the ground. It’s pretty extraordinary.

It’s amazing but anyway, I I wonder It just feels like if their brains are possibly rewired, hardwired in a different way now with the phone and with technology. I feel, I, I, I kind of joke, but maybe it’s because I’m uncomfortable about it. That my youngest daughter is part of the experiment, you know, the gray matter in the brain from looking at, I mean, it just goes on and on all the suggestions of what happens.

[00:19:38] Arthur Brooks: Have you read Jonathan Heights new book? Yeah. Oh, the,

[00:19:40] Gabby: uh, the one about trust and anxiety. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He’s amazing.

[00:19:43] Arthur Brooks: He’s amazing. He’s, I’ve been working with him since 2007. We’ve been doing stuff together and I, he’s, he’s an actual, um, prophet. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Actually among scientists, he’s a prophet.

He’s always seeing what we’re all going to be talking about two years in advance. He’s one of the most extraordinary characters I’ve ever met in my, in my business, social science, and it’s just incredible. And this whole thing where he’s basically talking about your daughter and the experiment, the matrix that we’ve thrown our Gen Z kids into.

With not just with the technology just with the way that we bombard them with particular messages. They’re they’re the product Is what it’s come down to and you know people will say No, any of us can get addicted to social media. It’s not the same No, it isn’t the same your brain and

[00:20:24] Gabby: my brain had a chance to develop before this completely I can look

[00:20:28] Arthur Brooks: at social media

[00:20:29] Gabby: Okay Right. Yeah,

[00:20:30] Arthur Brooks: it’s actually not that interesting

[00:20:32] Gabby: Well, when you really get the distance, it’s wild. It’s almost like clicking through a TV channel where it was like, buy this. And then it was like somebody doing exercises and then somebody in a drama, like it’s almost like that if you really look at it. So for you, and I know your kids are a little bit older, but.

[00:20:49] Arthur Brooks: Yeah. My oldest is 25.

[00:20:50] Gabby: Yeah. Yeah. Is that I, I’m at a place now where like when people that it seems like to be in charge of all that, I, I’m like, listen, I am not, I am not in charge of it. And if she, if I, if I created some kind of rule or boundary, she’d figure out another way. I mean, they have ways around this technology that I can’t keep up.

And so I decided that I would just be the best example. I could be and that we would when she wants to talk, which is relatively often, I would put everything away and talk. But I was just wondering from your point of view, because we’re talking about the practice, because it’s the same with health and fitness.

I go, listen, you can have all the information in your brain. If you don’t have the practice, it doesn’t mean anything. You are a musician. If you didn’t practice, it wouldn’t matter. So when it comes to younger people. I’m just curious if things have shown up because I know that, um, You know, there’s obviously some impacts and we can get into it about younger girls.

I think 15 to 25 and weirdly middle-aged men. Yeah.

[00:21:54] Arthur Brooks: Those, those are the two groups that have heightened rates of self harm actually.

[00:21:58] Gabby: What’s going on with the men? Is it middle aged crises accentuated and like the males and masculinity has been, is like. Yeah. Shamed and everything. It’s a different problem.

[00:22:07] Arthur Brooks:  Yeah. So women and girls, it’s, it’s, they’re, they’re the ultimate product of what’s actually happened in our, you know, all the, the, the matrix, you know, the John Height stuff that we’re talking about. Middle aged men. So men between 45 and 60 are more likely to commit suicide than they have in the past. More likely to have cirrhosis of the liver than they’ve had in the past. More likely to die of, of opiate overdose, death and deaths. I mean, it’s just, it’s really, really grim. Has a lot to do with not being needed. Not being needed at home, not being needed at work, not being needed in society. There’s this sense that, that a lot of guys in that generation aren’t needed by anybody.

And there’s nothing worse for despair than not being needed. Being needed is the essence of dignity. You know, it’s one of the things we do is we, with our kids, we make them feel needed. Right. I mean, they’re the ultimate words of the state, right? I mean, they’re complete takers, but we don’t make them feel as such because we want them to feel like assets to develop, not liabilities to manage.

The minute you feel like a liability to manage, you’re not needed and you will feel despair. And despair is complete self destruction. That’s the way that it works. And so that’s, you know, the, the, the solutions aren’t so easy, but we have to understand the problem at least, as opposed to saying, ah, you suck it up, buttercup.

No, if you feel despair, it’s going to be bad. And there’s a whole cohort in society that feels like they’ve been overtaken by events. And that’s the best explanation that I can actually see in the data as a social scientist about that particular cohort.

[00:23:32] Gabby: Yeah. And I think maybe it was even the last book you talked about, it would almost be better if they were getting aggressive and sort of like bucking against it.

But the fact that they’re retreating is the scariest part. Giving up. Yeah.

[00:23:44] Arthur Brooks: When you actually, people start to. When they’re still rebelling, there’s a lot of hope. It’s for the kids, you know.

[00:23:52] Gabby: I was gonna say, that’s what I try to tell myself when my kids question every bit of authority. I’m like, oh, this is so amazing.What an amazing dream.

[00:23:58] Arthur Brooks: It’s a terrible day, but it’s overall, you know, in the long run, it’s good.

[00:24:02] Gabby: Yeah.

[00:24:02] Arthur Brooks: I know. It gets better, Gabby, I promise. It’s like, I’m a grandfather now.

[00:24:07] Gabby: I know, I read that. That is

[00:24:08] Arthur Brooks: just, that is just,

[00:24:09] Gabby: Is it great?

[00:24:10] Arthur Brooks: It’s a complete game changer.

[00:24:11] Gabby: Do you wind them up and send them home or how do you do it?

[00:24:14] Arthur Brooks: Well, we, we take, my wife takes care of our little grandson three days a week, so he’s with us a lot and we’re, we’re working to stay together geographically. So keeping the whole family together geographically, cause my 23 year old, his wife is also having a baby this summer and I mean, raise them Catholic. They do Catholic stuff. Yeah, of course.

[00:24:32] Gabby: Well, if you’re not goingto fool around then. Yeah.

[00:24:33] Arthur Brooks: Well, I mean, I’m not going to put any guarantees that they didn’t, but,

[00:24:38] Gabby: well, I’m saying, you know, at least it’s like, Hey, let’s do this out in the open sun, you know?

[00:24:43] Arthur Brooks: But it’s really great. I mean, it’s, um, because it makes you see the sort of intergenerational understanding of the meaning of your life.

Yeah. Is the way that this works and, and you’re with each other and you’re learning from each other. And this is actually one of the greatest, uh, insurance policies against a lot of the predations of modern life. Love is, is, is, is insurance. Love is protective actually against a lot of these things that we see because when people are lonely, then they’ll actually binge on the junk food of social life, which is social media.

I mean, it’s social media is like getting all your meals at fast food places. It’ll fill you up, but you’ll be hungry immediately afterward because you’re not meeting your nutrient needs too many calories not enough nutrients You’ll be hungry fast and you’ll become Sick and overweight.

[00:25:28] Gabby: Yeah,

[00:25:29] Arthur Brooks: that’s what social media actually does to you now.

We understand the neurophysiology of this There’s a there’s a neuropeptide in your brain called oxytocin We’ve evolved this so that we’ll have contact with our kin. We’re a kin based species a hierarchical tropical kin based species That’s homo sapiens

[00:25:44] Gabby: Now

[00:25:45] Arthur Brooks: we don’t have to live in the truck, you know, you live in a beautiful place But we’ve also invented coats so I can live in boston, but we’re still a kin based species And so we’re intensely interested in being around our people So we get a reward and that reward from is only for my contact and touch it’s called oxytocin.

It’s intensely pleasurable Yeah, and when you don’t get it you feel like you’re You know, you’ve got the monkey on your back. I mean, it’s like being, you know, having the, having the, you know, the DTs or something is so bad and people don’t understand why they’re so physically uncomfortable. And so they’ll do the only thing that they can.

They’ll grab for the only solution they can find, which is their phone. And their device, and then they’ll look at social media, which gives us kind of momentary sense of, and then immediately it’s worse back and you wind up binging and getting lonelier as the hours go by.

[00:26:32] Gabby: Yeah. And I just want to reemphasize that eye contact and touch super important.

[00:26:35] Arthur Brooks: Yeah.

[00:26:36] Gabby: And that’s why this

[00:26:37] Arthur Brooks: is better person, by the way.

[00:26:38] Gabby: Uh huh.

[00:26:39] Arthur Brooks: This is why this is better in person.

[00:26:40] Gabby: A hundred percent. Uh huh. Yeah. No, I, I always prefer this.

[00:26:44] Arthur Brooks: Totally.

[00:26:44] Gabby: Yeah. So we can, we can be together and then the energy. So at the top of the book, you define, you’re very careful about defining happiness.

Yeah. Cause I, I think. And maybe that’s also what deters people as they think, you know, happiness and it’s this and it’s all the time and it’s a place that you land. And so you’re really careful at the beginning and you say this about Oprah saying, you know, it’s

[00:27:06] Arthur Brooks: not a destination, right?

[00:27:08] Gabby: And so I just, I want to reemphasize that because even for me, I never think about being happy.

I actually think about being peaceful because I feel like with my type of personality, that’s sort of my version.

[00:27:18] Arthur Brooks: Yeah. So here’s the question, Gabby. Did you take the test on, on the PANAS personality test?

[00:27:23] Gabby: Oh, you mean whether it’s, I’m a, uh, I’m a, a judge.

[00:27:25] Arthur Brooks: You’re a mad scientist, aren’t you? Huh? You’re a mad scientist, aren’t you?

Yeah, I am. Yeah, you’re a mad scientist.

[00:27:29] Gabby: So you have judge, maybe, oh, let’s go there because I was going to ask you about that. Yeah, because then we can

[00:27:32] Arthur Brooks: talk about, you know, what you’re looking for in happiness. Then we can define happiness after that if you want. Okay, so this is an emotional intensity test.

It’s in this book. It’s great. And, and I use this constantly. I use this with CEOs. I use this with my students, my MBA students. And theres four kinds of people with respect to emotional intensity. Everybody feels like a special, you know, unique flower for their emotions because like I have these emotions and we all have the same emotions.

Of course. I mean the emotion, the emotional palette is basically sadness, anger, disgust and fear on the negative side and surprise, joy and interest on the positive side. We all have the same, its like the same kitchen with the same ingredients. We all make different dishes. Recipes because of the intensity that we feel relatively these emotions at different times Now the four types of people in terms of emotional intensity are people who are very high positive and very high negative

[00:28:22] Gabby: Is that the artists

[00:28:23] Arthur Brooks: those are that those are the mad scientist?

[00:28:25] Gabby: Oh the mad scientist the mad

[00:28:26] Arthur Brooks: scientists are high positive intensity high negative intensity. They feel everything really strongly So you’re I can just I can Pretty much guarantee that you’re a mad scientist, right? And yet that’s great because mad scientists make the best CEOs. They make the best entrepreneurs, right?

Yeah. They’re sometimes hard to be married to. My, I’m a mad scientist. My wife reminded me this morning that it’s hard to be. Why do you think

[00:28:47] Gabby: we’re hard to be married?

[00:28:49] Arthur Brooks: Actually, I’ll be honest with you. I’m more of a judge.

[00:28:51] Gabby: Are you?  Laird was the mad scientist. Oh, interesting. Because I’m not so emotional. I kind of control, I sort of go through.

Are you really?

[00:28:59] Arthur Brooks: Or you just show that because you have a lot of self control? You’re a professional athlete.

[00:29:03] Gabby: I know. I don’t know. It was, it’s tricky because I had to develop that early as a kid. And so I don’t know if I’m naturally, but I live with somebody who’s a mad scientist and wears their emotions on their sleeve.

High and low. Yeah. And you, you said that Oprah, if I’m not mistaken, is a judge. So you guys worked good, well together. Okay. So the judge is

[00:29:21] Arthur Brooks: low, low. Yeah. Mad scientist is high, high.

[00:29:23] Gabby: Yeah.

[00:29:24] Arthur Brooks: Yeah. Judges low, low.

[00:29:25] Gabby: Yeah.

[00:29:25] Arthur Brooks: High, low, or high positive, low negative, that’s the cheerleader. Cheerleader. Everybody wants to be a cheerleader.

They’re not the best CEOs because they’re bad at taking, they can’t take bad news and they can’t get bad evaluations. They can’t be honest with their employees, for example. They have a hard time with that. It’s not that they can’t. They have a hard time with that. Yeah. And then there are people who are high negative, low positive.

Those are the poets. The poets are high negative, low positive, and they tend to be, they suffer a lot, but they tend to be very creative.

[00:29:52] Gabby: Are they empathetic too, by nature? They can

[00:29:54] Arthur Brooks: be. Okay. But they’re, or they can be withdrawn. They can be ornery. It sort of depends on how you develop. See, this is the point of the test is know yourself.

Yeah. Play to your strengths. Remediate your weaknesses. Surround yourself with compliments. is what it comes down to. So in this, and by the way, on the website for this book, which is great, you can take the test completely free of cost, tons of free of cost resources for this, and you can find out what quadrant you fall into.

So that’s really important. Okay. Now, depending on who you are, you’re going to define, you’re going to think of happiness is the same for everybody. Same definition for everybody. You’re going to be maximizing different things in your happiness equation to manage yourself because emotional self management is the ultimate leadership.

I mean, I know, I was talking to a guy a month ago, he said, I talked to all these, you know, masters of the universe in financial markets and like, it’s like, I, I, I, I can manage 13 billion of other people’s money, but I can’t manage my marriage. Why? Because he’s really good at managing these exterior things, but he can’t manage these interior things.

So a lot of my work is about emotional self management such that you actually can be a happier person.

[00:31:01] Gabby: Yeah. And it’s hard because on that stuff, we’re not objective. It’s like parenting. Yeah. I think it’s totally different when you, you talk a lot about in this adversity and that it’s important. So instead of shying away from adversity, the importance of adversity, I think we are by nature, this is always fascinating to me.

We have certain things biologically that are driving us. And like you said, it just It doesn’t care about our happiness, but also it’s sort of part of the deal for growth.

[00:31:29] Arthur Brooks: And

[00:31:29] Gabby: but somehow in the cultural conversation, it’s always like, you should feel this and you should be that. And then, Ooh, something bad is happening versus like in sport.

Or if you’re studying something, if you’re in a lab, you go, Oh, we have a adversity. Right. Let’s check it out.

[00:31:44] Arthur Brooks: Yeah, no, for sure. And you know, it’s, we have a syndrome right now, particularly young adults, that’s kind of the same as the hippies. Except turned upside down. So the hippies used to say if it feels good do it, right?

And I the Woodstock generation, I remember my father hearing that and going that’s the end of America. He was kind of right anyway Yeah But it’s it’s terrible way to live because you’re living in the limbic system of your brain this console of tissue that creates emotions But it’s not the executive center of your brain and if you’re gonna just Tap the pleasure centers of your brain all day.

You’ll just be an addict.

[00:32:17] Gabby: Yeah,

[00:32:17] Arthur Brooks: you know, you’ll be addicted to behaviors You’ll be addicted to substances You’ll be subjugated to your desires if it if you’re living for if it feels good do it you need to live more for enjoyment than pleasure and Enjoyment takes pleasure and adds people in memory so that you have a truly human experience The limbic experience, the animal experience is not enough because it will own you is what it comes down to.

So I tell them a lot of my students, if there’s something pleasurable and it can be addictive, which is most pleasurable things, never do it alone. If you’re doing it alone, you’re doing it wrong. Because you’re going to compulsively hit the lever and the ventral tegmental area of your brain Which is the pleasure center of your brain ding ding ding ding and over and over again I’m gonna find you at 4 a.

m. By yourself in Vegas, you know with a slot machine or something or something bad like that So that’s an important thing to keep in mind and that whole philosophy is misbegotten The opposite philosophy that we see today is if it feels bad make it stop

[00:33:14] Gabby: Yeah,

[00:33:15] Arthur Brooks: if I’m suffering something’s wrong with me If I’m feeling sad or anxious, it means I’m broken and I need treatment.

That is completely wrong. Now, there are a lot of people who have exaggerated or maladaptive emotional states, mood disorders, and they need help, for sure. But the idea that if you’re sad and anxious, No, no, no. That just means you’re alive on planet Earth. That means you’re suffering and that means you have negative emotions, which are a reaction to your outside milieu and you need those to stay alive and safe.

And you’re having adverse experiences, which are normal and help you learn and grow. And if you’re trying, you’re spending all of your energy and trying time trying not to feel pain and suffering. You’re going to miss your whole life.

[00:33:58] Gabby: And it’s coming for you. It’ll crash down on you. Like, you know, I’m curious as a parent, you know, we joke in our house, an expert, somebody who lives a mile away, but somebody who has all this information and has studied it and written books and your kids are going through things or you’re trying to teach them these lessons.

Besides being an example, what are the invitations you make to them in a non scientific way? Because I think, right, when we, especially cause you are an academic, right? How do you talk to them? When they’re navigating something.

[00:34:31] Arthur Brooks: So it turns out it doesn’t matter what you say. Here’s the sad truth of parenting.

It literally, it does not matter. Literally. You could talk to them in Japanese and they don’t speak Japanese and it would not matter. All that matters is what they see. That’s all that matters. I mean, it’s just, Crazy, but I mean it’s like I mean I’m being absolutist here. I mean on the margin you say I mean if they hear you cussing they’re gonna cuss I get it But but but the point is if you want your kids to be religious be religious If you want your kids to, to, to be open to suffering, let them see you suffer.

If you want your kids to do hard things, do hard things. If you want your kids to not, not get drunk, don’t get drunk. That’s what it comes down to. That’s what parenting is all about. Live the way you want them to be. Say, okay, how do I want my son? Um, my, my, my middle son, Carlos, I remember thinking this when he was, he was, you know, he was difficult.

Right. He’s 23 today. Difficult. I mean, he was like a problem child, goofing off and, you know, not living up to his potential. I was constantly getting calls from the principal’s office and it’s like, there’s not no grade, the grades wasn’t showing up. Finally, my wife is an optimist. She’s like, at least we know he’s not cheating.

It was the worst and he wasn’t even having fun really. And so I remember thinking. What, what do I want him to be when he’s my age? I’m going to be that. And that’s what he’s going to see. He’s not, he’s going to see me and I say, I’m afraid to suffer, but I’m going to suffer. Right? And, and I want him to see me loving his mom.

I want him to see me practicing my faith. I want him to see me struggling with problems and trying to solve them. And so, and, and it’s a funny thing because now he’s 23, married, starting his life. He just got out of the Marine Corps. He was a sniper in the Marine Corps for four years, did a hard thing and, and he’s doing the things that he saw me doing.

I’m not telling him anything. But he’s doing that stuff because he said, you know, this is because he’s come to the conclusion that it’s kind of the person he wants to be. And that’s what we have to do. If you have a problem with your kid on one particular dimension, you’re haranguing your kid. The most important thing is to interrogate your own life.

and see what you’re modeling because they’re watching that. They’re, they’re, they’re crazy smart and very observant.

[00:36:54] Gabby: I think the arc on that too is so long. Yeah. So when you’re getting calls when he’s 12 and 13 and now he’s 23, it’s like the arc of maybe it was at 18 or 19 when he was in training that you started to go, Oh, he’s making a shift.

But it’s also that reminder that sometimes the story, the arc, the change. It takes a while. It does. And you just have to, and in a way for me, it does feel like a form of faith or religion, which is best practices, best practices. Right. It’s, it’ll find its way.

[00:37:28] Arthur Brooks: It will. Absolutely. It takes a long time to make a change in yourself and that’s when you make a change in your child to make a change in yourself.

So if you want your child to live in a healthy way, don’t put toxic garbage in your body and go to the gym and have your kids actually see that and ideally have them come with you and, and it won’t be overnight. for you and it won’t be overnight for him or her. Um, and, and, and ultimately you’ll see those behaviors made manifest in yourself and then reflected in your children.

Again, it’s not overnight and they’re going to be really frustrating days and it’s not perfect but that’s all we’ve got. Yeah. It’s just modeling the people that we want them to become through our own little example of our lives.

[00:38:09] Gabby: How about when they teach you? Doesn’t that always blow your mind?

[00:38:12] Arthur Brooks: Yeah.

Yeah. What they’re doing is they’re mirroring back to you. They’re almost always mirroring back to you because you’re not living up to your own standards and they’re reminding you. That’s what it’s a boomerang effect. It’s like, don’t tell lies. And then, and they’re like, okay, I got it. And then, and then you like tell a lie.

They’re like, Dad, I think you’re shading the truth.

[00:38:31] Gabby: Or how about when they add on, like your experience took you to here and then they took that and then they went, Oh, did you know this? And that’s sort of also pretty enjoyable.

[00:38:42] Arthur Brooks: It’s phenomenal. It’s really phenomenal. It really is.

[00:38:44] Gabby: You mentioned your wife often in your books.

She’s my guru. It feels I it’s weird even through your words. It’s like I feel your love and respect for her But also sort of this con I feel energetically it’s almost like she has this Constance about her Yeah, just by the way, you describe it when it comes to happiness Maybe people are alone. They don’t have yet had the good fortune to connect with somebody that really is their person.

Yeah How important is that? Is it? I mean, I know we can’t do this alone, but let’s say it’s twofold. Could you be here if you didn’t meet her when you were in Europe?

[00:39:27] Arthur Brooks: It’s a good question. I don’t know the answer to that, but we do know that there are lots of very happy, successful people who don’t have permanent marriages or have had unsuccessful marriages, for example, or never met their one and only.

But what they all have, if they’re successful, is very close friends. And here’s the point. The point of love and marriage is friendship. That’s the secret to a long and happy marriage is what they call companionate love. Yeah. Not passionate love. It’s very

[00:39:54] Gabby: unsexy by the way. Well, it sounds very not hot.

Just, I’m just saying. You and I have both been in very long relationships and I’m like, holy shit, is this where I am now? Uh huh.

[00:40:02] Arthur Brooks: Uh, it’s my best friend,

[00:40:03] Gabby: and

[00:40:08] Arthur Brooks: don’t worry kids. There is passion and companion love too, but it has

[00:40:11] Gabby: its different pockets, but that’s

[00:40:13] Arthur Brooks: the goal. And so I’ll, I’ll tell my students the most popular unit of module of my class leadership and happiness at the Harvard business school, by the way, they’re on average 28 years old is the, the, the module on the brain science and social science of falling in love and staying in love.

How do you treat your love life like a startup? That’s what that is all about and they’re super into that because nobody teaches them that it’s like, oh, I’ll find the right one It’ll be really great and we’ll hope for the best But it’ll be really cosmic and it’s my soulmate and they would never treat their careers like that These are very serious people and they shouldn’t treat their love lives like this either So when I tell them for example, you’re gonna look for somebody who’s your carbon copy.

That’s a mistake Look for somebody who, who, who completes you look for your compliment, not your substitute. I’ll talk to them about what’s the goal. Five years into your relationship, best friendship. You want to be your your roommate should be your absolute best friend. You want to walk Hand in hand into the sunset.

You love that best friend. So very much That’s the goal of five years into the relationship not like she’s so

[00:41:14] Gabby: hot

[00:41:15] Arthur Brooks: That’s the wrong goal because it can’t be sustained. I mean, that’s not nature doesn’t want us to sustain that We don’t have the neurochemistry to be able to sustain that.

[00:41:23] Gabby: Yeah,

[00:41:23] Arthur Brooks: so that’s what I talk about an awful lot Okay So therefore if you don’t have the good fortune or you’ve had the bad fortune of having these relationships dissolve um Look for best friendship, not in a marriage and have very, very close personal friends.

You can get a lot of the benefit from a marriage.

[00:41:38] Gabby: I think so. Especially friends that will tell you the truth like a partner will. I’d like to add, and I’m curious about this. So I always say to Laird, I will do everything for you that I put in quotes, a wife will do, a partner will do everything like, and all the things that you love, like Laird loves you.

I could learn dinner. It’s a very simple love language. It’s like intimacy on a regular basis and a sense of like, if I’m busy, I could be doing a million things, but man, if I also am like, here’s your dinner, he loves it and he is of service to the relationship. So let’s just say that. But I said, I will do everything a wife will do, but I do not treat me like your wife.

So there’s an interesting thing for me as a female where, you know, I don’t want to feel like, uh, oh, let me ask, uh, let me ask Gabby, let me ask the ball and chain. Let me, you know, it’s like, I love this idea where, uh, he does still treat me a little bit like his girlfriend and it doesn’t mean he’s wooing me and being like, oh, but it’s sort of that appreciation that when you show up and the other person sees you, that, that That people are have a little sparkle in their eyes still to see the other person

[00:42:47] Arthur Brooks: super important And

[00:42:48] Gabby: so it’s not about I just want to say that is what you’re also saying It’s not you you can still work on that.

And I think if you do it you can You can generate that kind of energy. You know, I made a deal with myself 10 years ago that I walked down every morning and I see Laird no matter what mood I’m in, cause I’m very, uh, you know, I’m sort of really in my mind all the time that when I’d see him, I would just be like, Hey, good morning.

And always smile and I would start that cycle that way. And that practice, and is it disingenuine? It’s not. Because I, the end result, I want, I want Laird to feel special. I want to be connected to him.

[00:43:26] Arthur Brooks: That’s disingenuous because love isn’t a feeling. Love is a commitment and an act and a decision.

[00:43:30] Gabby: Exactly.

[00:43:31] Arthur Brooks: Yeah.

[00:43:31] Gabby: And so a lot of times I’ll hear people go, Oh, well, that’s a, it’s like, listen, let me tell you a secret. I don’t even feel like working out 50 percent of the time. I get it done. And in some ways, because I love this person and I want them to feel celebrated and selfishly in the negotiation, I’m also looking.

Um, I’m look, I will get something in return for that. Um, but that you could be together a long, long time and still be like, Oh, there you are. I don’t know if you’ve ever run into your wife when you didn’t expect to,

[00:43:59] Arthur Brooks: right?

[00:43:59] Gabby: And you’re just like, Oh,

[00:44:00] Arthur Brooks: awesome.

[00:44:01] Gabby: There you are. That’s what I want.

[00:44:04] Arthur Brooks: Yeah, totally.

That’s really important because people kind of lose that and then sometimes it’ll be too late. Yeah. Totally. You know, a relationship will fall apart and they’ll say, Oh yeah, that’s what I did wrong. I didn’t actually see her. I didn’t see her for a long time. She was invisible to me because it was like, you know, a plant in the corner.

You know, we, we habituate ourselves to our circumstances, including to our circumstances with in terms of people, the people that we live with. And that’s a really important thing to not do. Because then you’ll objectify the other person in all sorts of unsexy ways and um, people don’t like that, men and women don’t like that.

[00:44:42] Gabby: No, and I think it winds also back though to what you’re trying to do and build the life you want, is when you are doing those things in this happiness practice, it makes all of that. Certainly way easier. Oh

[00:44:58] Arthur Brooks: yeah. Yeah, totally. And it’s all of the things that we talk about in the practice of the serious science of happiness is much easier if you have a partner.

You know, there’s a thing that we talk about in this book that Oprah and I talk about in this book, it’s the ultimate technique for managing your emotions, which is called metacognition. All that means is, is paying attention to your emotional, is knowing yourself as being aware of your awareness. And that’s using the prefrontal cortex of your brain, the bumper of Tissue behind your forehead is the C suite of your brains.

30 percent of your brain is the human advantage and using that to observe the limbic system, which is producing all of your emotions. And so instead of just having your limbic system go, blah, you’re sad. You say, can’t be feeling sad right now. Oh, how interesting. What might that be about? That’s the important thing that we can actually do.

metacognitive with a partner. And so if you’re interrogating your joint emotions, that’s power. I mean, there’s almost nothing like that. There’s almost no power greater in a relationship that you can have in this joint metacognition. You can’t do it otherwise. So one of the things that I recommend to couples is that they meditate together.

My wife and I, we pray together, which is the most intimate thing. When you talk about intimacy, I know what you’re talking about, but praying together is like, mind blowingly higher levels of intimacy. I know couples that have been, they’re serious religious people and they’ve been married for 40 years and they’ve never prayed together because it’s too embarrassing.

Right? Yeah, totally. Because it’s like, ah, it’s kind of a private thing. Nuh uh. That’s power. That’s huge metacognitive power where you can actually jointly manage your wired together emotions and minds. And then, oh man, I mean, you’ll never split up.

[00:46:35] Gabby: I know that your, your faith is important to you, but you’re in these very intellectual environments at Harvard and other, uh, when someone comes at you, because it’s interesting, I was listening to something where they were talking about, um, I don’t know, it’s his name, Brian Lindsay was on Joe Rogan.

And they were talking about like, he sort of predicts things and he goes, and I get a lot, right. And I’ve gotten some wrong. And he goes, Oh, what’s one of the ones that got wrong that, uh, we didn’t need God. Yeah. As a society. Right. And Rogan was like, yeah, you know, I always thought that the intellectual, the atheist, they were the smart ones, but I agree.

So in this time where we have killed God, our world has killed God. That’s why we’re up. That’s what Nietzsche said. Yeah. Well, we’re upside down. Uh huh. Right? We don’t know what this is. We don’t know what that is. It’s like we’ve killed God in some way. Are you Hopeful, are you optimistic? Where do you lie right now?

Because it is it’s a very interesting time. Yeah,

[00:47:32] Arthur Brooks: it is How do you

[00:47:33] Gabby: navigate? Because I I think this is a core Tenant or the tenant to when you talk about happiness and it doesn’t have to be God and in the rules I’m not saying it that way But it’s this idea of something greater. It’s transcendence. You need to

[00:47:49] Arthur Brooks: transcend yourself.

You need to find something that’s a power greater than yourself. And a lot of ways to do that, to be sure. And then again, metaphysically, that’s different than, you know, what’s right. That’s a different conversation. But for when it comes to living on earth and in harmony, you need something transcendent.

You got to have it. If you’re the be all and end all, you’re living like a caveman. I mean, you’re, you’re, you’re in the psychodrama. It’s too hard. That’s what it comes down to. And, and by the way, that is profoundly unintellectual. I mean, imagine that I said, I’m, I’m an art historian. I specialize in Picasso’s work, but I have zero interest in Picasso the artist.

Well, that’s that’s that’s incomplete You know if you’re really going to understand picasso, you need to understand his paintings and the man But you’re not going to find evidence of the man in his paintings You’re not going to look in a telescope out into the into the heavens and find god There is the ipso messe the I am which is the creator and then there’s a creation and you should be Interested in both but you shouldn’t Confuse them one for the other that’s the most wraparound Intellectual framing that we can have for anything in the in the world and that’s what everybody had Until a couple hundred years ago, and and so it’s really important for us to recognize that there’s it’s not just respectable It’s complete for us to be at least questioning these transcendent Matters in our in our lives and that’s why for me the whole idea that I’ve got a religious life And I’ve got the life of science and they work together perfectly well I wouldn’t understand the science without the faith and I wouldn’t understand the faith without the science because the science is Evidence of God’s creation and I just can marvel at it that much more.

So what the iron sharpens iron in this particular way

[00:49:30] Gabby: Yeah, what is the quote from the scientists? Just give me a one miracle and then I can explain the science or something like that

[00:49:36] Arthur Brooks: Something my dad was a statistician. Actually, my dad was a phd biostatistician and he would talk about Distributions of events, you know how the standard normal distribution, right?

And he said god is so amazing. He’s very religious Yeah, I said I said what do you mean? He says well, you know god decided that That things were going to happen randomly following that distribution. Why did he decide that? That’s crazy. And I said, so what are miracles? And he said, tails on the distributions.

That’s crazy, right? Like three standard deviations out, something way out on the table, uh, six Sigma. That’s a miracle. That’s how my dad saw it as a statistician. I don’t know. Maybe he’s right, but it’s, it’s not bad.

[00:50:15] Gabby: Another thing I learned from you speaking of your dad was that it was, it’s the male in the house.

That really impacts kind of driving the faith

[00:50:24] Arthur Brooks: typically it’s the it’s the physically most imposing parent That’s what the best research suggests. So what happens when you’re a little kid is that yeah Yeah, so if you’re with a single mom, yeah, that would work, right? But you think that that person is like the strongest person in the world.

I remember thinking my dad could lift the house Right, which he was a math professor. He could not lift the house, you know but But but on Sundays he was on his knees You know, he would, he would be kneeling before no man. My dad was strong, but on Sundays there was something stronger than my dad. And I’m like, huh, that had an impact on a little dude, right?

And that’s important. Again, again, that’s not talk. That’s action. What are they seeing? What are they seeing? Do that thing. Ah, I hope my kids grow up and they practice my faith. Are you? Yeah. That’s all that really matters. Yeah.

[00:51:14] Gabby: On the front of collective happiness, right? Cause I sort of think, okay, I have to take, be responsible for myself and um, you know,

[00:51:22] Arthur Brooks: put on your oxygen mask first.

Yeah. And,

[00:51:24] Gabby: and I always adhere to, you know, I went to Byron Katie years ago for something with one of my daughters speaking about working on yourself. Um, and it was like, Hey, if you want to change, your environment, change yourself. And, um, but then there’s this idea of collective, the collective happiness and putting, cause there’s value.

I mean, I’m a member of the world I live in and I want to contribute to this and to a positive leaning place. I’m not perfect obviously, but in your point of view, you know, speaking about that collective happiness, I know. people want to make it better. Right. Do you have ideas about that or is it just, hey, listen, take care of your own house and that vibrates out?

[00:52:09] Arthur Brooks: Yeah, no, the, you won’t be happy unless you’re trying to bring happiness to others. This is one of the great secrets to happiness is bringing happiness to others. One of the best ways you can put on your own oxygen mask is actually working for the happiness of other people. Now there are times when you have to be thinking about is my, is my own house in order, right?

You can be a complete mess and then just trying to give and give and give and give and give, but that’s not, that’s not really helpful because you won’t be able to give very much unless you’re taking care of yourself as well. There’s a general equilibrium of taking care of yourself and finding that Focusing outward onto the world.

The problem is that when we get stuck in this paradigm, what they call today, self care, everybody’s talking about self care, self care makes me very uncomfortable because I mean, real self care is you’ve got to love yourself and you have to do things that you know will bring yourself to greater happiness among them, serving the world.

In a spirit of love, but that’s not what they’re talking about. They’re like, yeah, forget everybody. Let’s go get a massage That’s not the way we should be thinking about and radical self care is always putting your own interests first. That’s just selfishness Is what it comes down to so we have to be really careful about what we’re talking about here but Based on that there’s a lot of these really interesting studies that talk about how you can hack your happiness By doing the opposite of what you want to do For example, if you’re feeling lonely, the best way for you to feel less lonely is go find a lonely person and give them company.

That’s the single best way for you to not feel lonely is to find a lonely person and help. It’s crazy. If you’re insecure, find an insecure person and help them become more secure. If you’re, by the way, if you’re struggling with your math, find somebody who’s struggling with their math and help them with their math.

All of these things are these counterintuitive lessons that show that if you give the thing that you want to get in your marriage, in your romantic relationship, if you’re feeling like, I want more love, I want more love, what do I do? Well, I can be mad at him because he’s not giving more love, go love him.

[00:54:03] Gabby: Love them

[00:54:03] Arthur Brooks: all. That’s what it comes down to. Now, it’s not always reciprocated, but it’s the single best strategy in any given moment.

[00:54:08] Gabby: You can deal with that at that time. I always say, I’m here to be of service, and if somehow Laird over time wasn’t on the same page, we’d have to look at that. I can’t, you know.

[00:54:18] Arthur Brooks: But in the near term that’s the best thing you can do is go love them

[00:54:21] Gabby: Yeah, and

[00:54:21] Arthur Brooks: you know, I have to remember that because that’s not what mother nature tells you mother nature says look after yourself Make sure that you can make it through the winter. Yeah, right accumulate the resources because she doesn’t care if we’re happy Yeah, she just cares if we’re surviving and passing on her genes one more day, which is a heck of a strategy for life

[00:54:38] Gabby: I think well, I think it’s a Well, that’s the, that’s the education part, right?

Like, I think that that’s what’s actually so amazing is it’s sort of like the notion to overeat. It’s completely natural and biological because, hey, when you were going to get the berries or the meat, you should get as much as you can. Obviously, nature didn’t know we were going to be living the way we’re living.

And I think what is so fascinating is the minute we understand we don’t need to beat ourselves up like, yeah. Why is that my impulse? But that is where the growth is because you go. Oh, I want to do this But I’m this is better and I’m gonna do that and and there that’s

[00:55:12] Arthur Brooks: metacognition right there, right?

That’s an example of what we’re talking about. Is that your prefrontal cortex? Recognize your cravings and desires and emotions and you turn the tables on it by managing your

[00:55:24] Gabby: And I think, and you can attest to this, and I just want to remind people, if you practice this a little bit, a little bit, it does get easier.

Not only to recognize your weird reactions, behaviors, even if they’re not pretty, and not to judge them, but also not to, I think it does. People don’t realize it gets easier. So

[00:55:44] Arthur Brooks: everything does. Habits are funny thing. They become virtues.

[00:55:47] Gabby: Yeah.

[00:55:48] Arthur Brooks: You know, that’s, it’s a really important thing to keep in mind.

A lot of people, for example, where they don’t, I don’t like to exercise. I like to exercise. I mean, I can, I can look at personality tests and predict who’s not going to like to exercise. These are people who don’t have very much high negative. Then they have a harder time exercising because exercising is the single best way for you to manage your negative affect.

If you have intense negative emotions, exercising is the best way to do it. The worst way to do it is over work, or taking drugs, or distracting yourself with social media. Which are ways that people do it. Those are That’s insanity.

[00:56:19] Gabby: It’s

[00:56:19] Arthur Brooks: perdition. But if you go exercise the best way to do that people who don’t have a lot of negative affect They can’t stay on exercise programs.

It doesn’t feel that good It’s just like it just hurts right but the more you do it the more it becomes part of your routine It becomes more it becomes part of your life. Yeah, it’s a key thing and that’s really important I mean, it’s just it’s been a game changer for me.

[00:56:39] Gabby: I was gonna say you’re very fit

[00:56:41] Arthur Brooks: I’m 60.

So yeah, so it’s like, whether you’re 40 or

[00:56:44] Gabby: 30 and you can’t do that negative, I’m 60 talk. Do you do that? Do you have to fight that?

[00:56:49] Arthur Brooks: It’s okay. Actually, it’s just sort of funny to me. Is it weird? Is it trippy? It’s yeah. A number starting with a six. It’s wild. It’s kind of freaky. Well also it’s the amount of runway in front of us.

Yeah.

[00:56:59] Gabby: When you go like, Oh, in 20 years.

[00:57:01] Arthur Brooks: Yeah. That’ll be really old.

[00:57:02] Gabby: Well, I don’t know though. Why is it? My family doesn’t

[00:57:05] Arthur Brooks: make it to that. So, you know, well, you’re here.

[00:57:07] Gabby: What’s your. Yeah. What are your practices? Are you running? Are you? Yeah, I don’t

[00:57:12] Arthur Brooks: I don’t run very much So yeah, so men my age actually women my age to everybody are but in the in the in the 50 to 70 region should be in our age Yeah, you’re a lot.

You’re not I’m the same age as Laird Good

[00:57:23] Gabby: luck. You don’t want to train with Laird Laird’s a nightmare.

[00:57:26] Arthur Brooks: It’s a nightmare right because he’s insane

[00:57:29] Gabby: It’s just a relationship with discomfort It’s a different thing and because the end desire why the person’s training is such a deep. Yeah commitment,

[00:57:37] Arthur Brooks: right?

You Yeah. Yeah. I got it. Yeah. So it’s a, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a different kind of relationship. It’s baked into all sorts of things. Yeah. I get to go do

[00:57:45] Gabby: this. I get to go do my art. Yeah. Yeah. I’m strong enough and fit enough. You know, I’ve

[00:57:49] Arthur Brooks: actually seen what he does because I saw the documentary. It’s a different kind of,

[00:57:53] Gabby: the why is different.

[00:57:54] Arthur Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. So I get up before 45 every morning. That’s the Brahma Mahurta. That’s the creator’s time. I stretch, I pray, and then I’m in the gym by five 15. And I work out from five 15 to six 15, and I do resistance. Mm-Hmm. , because I have to after 50. Yeah. You’re gonna have sarcopenia. You’re gonna lose 1% of your muscle mass every year unless you fight against it.

[00:58:13] Gabby: Mm-Hmm. .

[00:58:14] Arthur Brooks: And, and by the way, we all know this, and so, you know, I look at myself in the mirror, I’m like, skeleton. I mean, I look like a skeleton. It’s like, why? Because mu you lose muscle mass in your face. Right. Just like anything else. But you can’t lift weights in your face. You can

[00:58:25] Gabby: do that jaw thing. You can.

I know that. It’s really annoying. I try to do it sometimes. Yeah. I try to pull my jaw out because you want to keep the width of your jaw. Right. You don’t want it to collapse in. Those, that jaw. It’s a thing you chew. Yeah. I do it sometimes if I’m sitting watching a movie or something. That’s

[00:58:40] Arthur Brooks: interesting.

Yeah. You might want to, you can take it on a plane. I don’t know. People will think it’s crazy. What’s he doing? But. So I lift and, and I try to get, I’m real active. So I’m moving around all day long. Yeah, for sure. So if you’re getting 10, 000 steps and 60 minutes of lifting, you can do a lot. And then I go to mass every morning, so seven days a week.

And then I, then only then I actually have psychostimulants. I use caffeine and I’m at my desk by seven 30 and that, that, that. That actually hacks the whole matrix of my biochemistry. So it’s body and soul. You beat yourself up. You’re not trying to learn neuroscience while you’re, while you’re working out because you can’t anyway, because once your blood pressure goes up, your concentration goes upside down, right?

You’re bench pressing. You’re not going to learn anyway. And then, and then, and then I’m going to mass. When I come back, I drink. You know, a heavy bolus of caffeine enough to get my attention 350 milligrams of caffeine usually and then I get three hours of really high quality dopamine in my prefrontal cortex and that’s gives you gives you focus and creativity.

That’s why I do all my writing and there’s no zooms and no shows and no meetings. No nonsense is getting into my mornings. They’re completely protected, which is great. And so I’ll usually I’ll and I’m on a plane, I can just work, work, work, work, work, work. Cause I, I set up this particular protocol. So that’s how actually how I do it.

So for me, my work just doesn’t work unless my body’s in shape.

[01:00:05] Gabby: Um,

[01:00:06] Arthur Brooks: because of, because my brain chemistry,

[01:00:08] Gabby: could you have had this practice when your kids were young?

[01:00:10] Arthur Brooks: Um, I did actually, I mostly did because I’m up before anybody else is up. So I get, you know, my wife, my wife’s Spanish. She’s not getting up at four, five in the morning.

I mean, it’s no way offensive to get up when

[01:00:21] Gabby: it’s dark, just so you’re clear. I know, I know. But that’s, you know, it’s just

[01:00:24] Arthur Brooks: the fact that it hurts. That’s the point. You know, that’s that, that, that is this act of the will,

[01:00:29] Gabby: right?

[01:00:30] Arthur Brooks: You know, it’s like, come on, bring it on. And I’m telling you, I get to say 445 this morning, I’m like, Oh, um, it hurts.

I have, I get up with an alarm clock. I’d sleep until seven. Absolutely. My body’d be like, yeah, keep it going. But, but, but standing up to the will first thing in the morning, that’s your first victory of the day. Yeah. And that’s, that’s, that’s non trivial. Yeah. Yeah. It is. I did it when my kids were little because my kids, you know, they’re slackers.

They slept later. Yeah. Can you believe it? They sleep till 6 o’clock. Now my son Carlos, now my son Carlos gets up at 4. 30 every day. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s because he’s hardcore. Yeah,

[01:01:07] Gabby: military. Yeah. His

[01:01:08] Arthur Brooks: little sister is talking about going into the officer corps. In the Marine Corps.

[01:01:13] Gabby: Does that upset make you nervous at all?

Are you differently protective over her than you were? I am.

[01:01:17] Arthur Brooks: I am. But she’s a, she’s a warrior. She’s a D2 rugby player in college. Oh,

[01:01:21] Gabby: well that’s brutal.

[01:01:23] Arthur Brooks: She’s she’s four 11.

[01:01:24] Gabby: Really? Yeah. Yeah. In heels.

[01:01:27] Arthur Brooks: Her pounds. She’s, she’s fast. She’s tough. She gets just like wiped out and she just pops back up. It’s the most amazing thing.

And she’s like, I, I think I’m going to, I think I’m going to do like Intel in the Marine Corps. What do you think dad? I bet you can.

[01:01:40] Gabby: Wow. I

[01:01:41] Arthur Brooks: bet you can, honey.

[01:01:42] Gabby: Wow.

[01:01:42] Arthur Brooks: Yeah. She’s tough.

[01:01:43] Gabby: Yeah. I love that. Yeah.

[01:01:44] Arthur Brooks: She’s strong.

[01:01:45] Gabby: So interesting. Daughters and sons. Yeah. Um, work and productivity. Uh, you’re obviously a high achiever and you know, books and everything.

I, uh, how much of that feeds into your, and it’s funny, I, I want, I recall this when I was getting ready to talk to you that the last time you Um, and, um, and sort of, you know, but liking the work, liking the conversation, even by the way, who doesn’t like positive attention? Like, Hey, I loved your book. So we’re boring.

Uh, no, but you know, what’s the, what’s the balance because I like to trick it off. Yeah. Task completion. That feels good. Right. For all of us, because I think it’s a natural litmus to use that as something that feeds our happiness. Is that dangerous? Yeah, totally. It’s a mistake. It’s a mistake. It is a mistake.

Come on, Arthur. Look, but I’m making

[01:02:45] Arthur Brooks: it too. You know, this is the thing. The world, see, workaholism, is a common thing and it has the same pathologies as any other chemical addiction or behavioral addiction, which is that there’s defensive behavior. There is a hiding behavior. It’s like snap, close the laptop and your spouse, you know, it’s like, no, no, I wasn’t

[01:03:04] Gabby: on, you know,

[01:03:05] Arthur Brooks: and, you know, sneaking into the room.

bathroom with an answer email that people do it all the time. Now, lurking behind that is a success addiction. Success addiction originally comes from, you know, the super striver, you know, you’re and you’re a professional athlete and that’s, that will, I mean, that’ll take over your brain because when you were a kid, you were a super athlete.

for sure. Like, when you were a little kid, you were preternaturally gifted and you worked really hard and that wired your brain to get your sense of reward and meaning from, from winning. And that, that’s like getting addicted to methamphetamine when you’re 14. That will literally wire the synaptic connections in your brain.

In such a way that you’ll be seeking that success people who were real winners. So I’ve you know, olympic medalists, for example I’ve had them in my classes They’re like I don’t feel anything when i’m not winning life is gray when i’m not winning And it’s like whoa, but yeah, and so that’s the success addiction that leads to self objectification Self objectification is i’m nothing more than a success and winning machine And that’s a one dimensional life That’s a life that sometimes will crowd out love That will crowd out good feelings that will crowd out Relationships that will crowd out faith and you have to be very careful So in from strength to strength the book that we while we first met I had interviewed Dominique Dawes You know who the the Olympic gold medalist is?

Gold medal, gym, gymnast from 1996. And, uh, she, she said that she has to not be an Olympic medalist so that she doesn’t ruin her marriage because I have to constantly, right. Does that sound right to you?

[01:04:40] Gabby: Yeah, it does. Well, I let that go a long time ago. I think somehow I grew up in the Caribbean, so I was actually a late bloomer and I was not taught to be anything.

[01:04:50] Arthur Brooks: When did you start to win?

[01:04:52] Gabby: Uh, more my later in high school when I really picked up sports seriously and then in college actually. So I got some time. But, but the point is when I was raised and same with Laird, he was raised on Kauai. We weren’t told to be anything. People we knew just lived. Yeah. They work.

That’s actually

[01:05:09] Arthur Brooks: probably healthier.

[01:05:11] Gabby: Well, it is because for us, that actually is not the litmus of success. I am a grinder and I have to be careful. Yeah. But the relationships, the family. Um, all of that I understood, uh, was, was the real, the really important things. And I’ll, I’ll take it a step further. I started to observe myself as an adult and realized that in some ways I curtailed some of my success because I didn’t want it to ruin my life.

So then, and sometimes that’s not healthy because in a way you’re not blossoming as much as you can. Yeah. But I also saw that everyone I knew that did that to the fullest fullest. Yeah, it ruined their personal life

[01:05:49] Arthur Brooks: Yeah, they didn’t have a personal life. They didn’t have a real life. They had a kind of a simulacrum for a life Yeah, that was that one dimensionality that we’re talking about think

[01:05:57] Gabby: about businessmen think all the CEOs, you know, they have a billion dollars And they’re on their third family because they don’t and I understand how much energy does one person have?

But it is a very it’s they get

[01:06:08] Arthur Brooks: no reward They get no sense of reward unless they’re doing a deal unless they’re actually winning I remember that from when I was a kid because I was a I was a Kid musician. Yeah. And I was a really good classical musician. It was one of these like stage moms who was my accompanist who would play the piano and I would do these competitions.

That’s like and and I won everything. I was one. Of course, I was one. I was I was like the first chair. And it’s just man. It was my whole my reward system is tied to accomplishment. That’s my reward system and I have to know myself and be very careful about that because I’ve gone from thing to thing to Thing to thing I’ve changed careers and it’s like, okay.

I know how to Rig this system. I know actually how to how to you know, how to hack this matrix I know how to do it and and and I’ll work like crazy The trouble with that is that I’m sacrificing a lot of other things that will actually make me happy because the worldly rewards, money, power, pleasure, fame, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Those are intermediate rewards. If they will help you get to serving others, loving others, understanding the divine, having close friends, serving the world. Good. Right. But if that’s the goal is money, power, pleasure and fame, that’s like driving to New York and stopping on the New Jersey turnpike. It’s like, huh, this is not that great.

Yeah, it’s not that great.

[01:07:24] Gabby: Yeah, I think your point of staying small, though, protects us from the other stuff. Because when you have that place, It makes, I think you stay more clear. I think you stay more in touch with not being led around by that, those ideas and, and being more aware of the relationships.

And also knowing it doesn’t matter even if you were the best, there’s going to be a next best.

[01:07:47] Arthur Brooks: There’s going to be a next best and you’re going to be, Old and you’re gonna be

[01:07:50] Gabby: forgotten

[01:07:50] Arthur Brooks: totally and fast man. I mean I was a ceo This is the craziest thing. I was a ceo and I was like the king of the mambo. I was really I felt truly important And I went back six months after I left that job into the company.

It’s like i’m back everybody. They’re like, who are you? Yeah, all the people were different young people. There’s like some guy some just another just another bald guy in his 50s You know, it’s uh, these worldly rewards are incredibly ephemeral. All that lasts is love

[01:08:21] Gabby: And you say that love it’s hard stop.

That’s it.

[01:08:24] Arthur Brooks: That’s it Happiness is love full stop and and the truth of the matter is if you’re not focused on that You’re not focused on anything that matters the goal of of success in your life is to Make your life an offering for the good of other people And that’s what your excellence really should be for as opposed to the gratification of your ego and to finally feel something to work your Brain chemistry so you can get adequate dopamine that actually comes from being number one.

That’s a that’s a that’s a hell of a way to live Doesn’t work

[01:08:54] Gabby: doesn’t let me ask you a question because I this is something i’ve been pondering. So this is like really a selfish question You know, I i’ve been in a public job. Let’s say since 1988 I was in college in 1988, started modeling in 88, went professional in 92.

I’ve been in a public job, right?

[01:09:11] Arthur Brooks: People looking at you for a living. A little bit, right?

[01:09:15] Gabby: And I have been dedicated to my family for the last 25 years and I’ve worked, I’ve kept it sort of going, but I have also, and even being with Laird, I’ve championed Laird, I’ve lifted Laird up and there’s good practice in that.

Really good practice in like, Oh, are you Laird’s wife? Yes, I am. Like, you know what I mean? And sometimes we’re our kid’s parents, whatever that means. But there have been moments.

[01:09:36] Arthur Brooks: Do they call you Mrs. Hamilton?

[01:09:38] Gabby: Sometimes. They used to call Laird occasionally Mr. Reese. Oh, perfect. That’s perfect. That’s perfect.

When we first met, it was like this a little bit. Anyway, I, uh, I have had thoughts because of time. And, uh, that I don’t want to run out of time that I do want to participate in the world I live in. Like you’re writing this book right now. If in another four years you’ll have another book in you.

[01:10:05] Arthur Brooks: One year.

Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Six months. Right. But it’s like.

[01:10:11] Gabby: There’s a part of me that I, and I’m realistic and it’s not, it’s not a burning hole in my head or anything, but I think I don’t want to run out of time. I don’t want to get so far out of touch that I’m, I’m not contributing to this world that actually I don’t understand because sometimes the world is moving in a way that I go a lot of it.

I don’t really, I’m not clear. So do you ever. Navigate that because I think that that is daunting sometimes as you You go through life and you do start to get older and you do want to contribute, but you’re not sure if you’re going to run out of time.

[01:10:49] Arthur Brooks: It is a different feeling that you don’t consider when you’re 40.

You just don’t think that way. And you do a lot of things that are long term commitments that you don’t love that much because you know that the payoff is going to be great in the long term. And after a certain point in your life, you say the long term. What is the long term? Am I making a decision, am I making an investment decision in my life that’s, that, that makes a lot of, that’s based on my, my, my, my prejudices and my, you know, hang ups, my, my complexes, or am I actually doing something that is a good investment?

in my future. And, and once you start to think that way, wow, the, the, the, that’s when the matrix starts to shift a little bit for sure. And I’ve found myself actually making different decisions than I would have made in the past. I’ll be thinking about, Oh, that’s a really important institution. I want to do something that’ll, that’ll really look great.

That can really pay off in 10 years, like 10 years, I’m going to be turning 70 in 10 years.

[01:11:44] Gabby: Yeah.

[01:11:45] Arthur Brooks: And, and, and what do I want to be doing when I’m 70? Well, I want to be dandling my 17th grandchild on my knee or something. That’s what I want to be doing. I don’t want to be like trying to kill it again. It’s like, yeah, another book, another book, another book, another book.

Why? And so I’m trying to write things that actually are significant, that say something that can have an impact that will help other people. And I’m trying to think, I haven’t figured this one out yet, Gabby, what does it mean to stop?

[01:12:11] Gabby: Okay. But so do you think the dangling of your grandchild will be done better when you just have at least a tiny piece of real estate, of creative outlet and, and.

Contribution that’s just from you. No

[01:12:25] Arthur Brooks: doubt. No doubt. I help people retire I’ve given a lot of people advice on how to retire now. What am I doing? I’m giving myself advice on how to get older, right? But yeah, so I talked to a lot of CEOs and entrepreneurs who are you know 10 15 20 years older than me and they’ll come to me until I read one of my books and I’ll be like Oh, sensei, how do I stop?

I can’t stop. I don’t know how to stop and, and, and there are protocols that you can actually follow that make it better. So there’s one thing that every busy successful person, these are called strivers, I’m the striver whisperer at this point, right? And they’re one thing that all strivers hate about their lives, which is that they’re, they’re always too busy.

Yeah. Yeah. They don’t have time. And so they’re at the gym and they want to do another couple of sets, but they have to stop because they have to go do a thing. They’re having lunch and they’re enjoying it and they have to leave. They, they, they’re trying to cut off a zoom meeting because at least they need two minutes to pee before the next zoom meeting.

And they’re living that way and they don’t like it because humans don’t like that. It’s not natural. They all hate that. It’s okay. Let’s start with the spaces. Let’s start with the white spaces in your life. We need adequate white space in your life So what would give you the most and then we’ll we’ll grid up their their lives You know What are the three clients and two mentees and one for profit board and this activity that will give you adequate white space?

So you can have a two hour lunch And then what will naturally happen is that those gaps will start to fill in but they’ll enjoy their lives more because they’re doing things That are extremely meaningful They won’t be investing in things that they don’t care that much about and they’ll actually have time to pee

[01:13:59] Gabby: Yeah,

[01:14:00] Arthur Brooks: which is an unbelievable privilege for a lot of these drivers.

Yeah as dumb as it sounds

[01:14:06] Gabby: because they’re minute by minute Yeah All right. Well arthur I could talk to you all day Um, I I so appreciate you coming to my house and I like your house and sharing you can come here anytime It’s beautiful. You want to come and train? Yeah, and uh, if I mean people can obviously get the book build the life you want online or audible Yeah.

Oprah and I

[01:14:26] Arthur Brooks: will read it to you. The dulcet tones of our voices. And

[01:14:29] Gabby: her melodic voice. Oh, it’s unbelievable. You could get like me, the paperback, which is in large print. I could read it from across the room. Um, I just thought I was such a fast reader. Um, and then just remind people, cause you do have a lot of resources, all the places that they can go to.

Yeah.

[01:14:44] Arthur Brooks: Arthurbrooks. com is the website. It’s kind of like the, the, the omnibus website that has got all the materials. So you can take lots of no cost You know, materials, down things, PowerPoints you can download so you can give my lectures, some of my lectures if you want. You can take tests that show you different personality characteristics.

Are you a narcissist? Well, you can find out at ArthurBrooks. com. And then there’s even a workshop, a 10 part workshop in the science of happiness. It gives you kind of a flavor for how you, how you can teach and learn the science of happiness to other people. There’s a lot of, a lot of stuff to learn.

[01:15:12] Gabby: Thank you.

[01:15:12] Arthur Brooks: Thanks. Thank you.

[01:15:14] Gabby: Thank you for listening to this week’s episode. If you want to learn more, there is a ton of valuable information on my website. All you have to do is go to Gabrielle Reese. com or head to the episode show notes to find a full breakdown with helpful links to studies, research, books, podcasts, and so much more.

If you have any questions, please feel free to reach out and send them to at Gabby Reese on Instagram. And if you feel inspired, please subscribe. I’ll see you next week.

About Arthur Brooks

Arthur C. Brooks is the Parker Gilbert Montgomery Professor of the Practice of Public and Nonprofit Leadership at the Harvard Kennedy School, and Professor of Management Practice at the Harvard Business School, where he teaches courses on leadership, happiness, and social entrepreneurship. He is also a columnist at The Atlantic, where he writes the popular “How to Build a Life” column. Brooks is the author of 13 books, including the 2023 #1 New York Times bestsellerBuild the Life You Want: The Art and Science of Getting Happier with co-author Oprah Winfrey, and the 2022 #1 New York Times bestseller From Strength to Strength: Finding Success, Happiness, and Deep Purpose in the Second Half of Life. He speaks to audiences all around the world about human happiness and works to raise well-being within private companies, universities, public agencies, and community organizations.

Brooks began his career as a classical French hornist, leaving college at 19, touring and recording in the United States and Spain. In his late twenties, while still performing, he returned to school, earning a BA through distance learning. At 31, he left music and earned an MPhil and PhD in public policy analysis from the Rand Graduate School, during which time he worked as an analyst for the Rand Corporation’s Project Air Force, performing military operations research analysis. Brooks then spent the next 10 years as a university professor, primarily at Syracuse University, where he taught economics and nonprofit management, and published 60 peer-reviewed articles and several books, including the textbook “Social Entrepreneurship” (2008). In 2009, Brooks became the president of the American Enterprise Institute (AEI) in Washington, DC, one of the world’s most influential think tanks. Over the following decade, he was selected as one of Fortune Magazine’s “50 World’s Greatest Leaders” and was awarded seven honorary doctorates.