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In this inspiring conversation with Alexi Pappas, an Olympian, filmmaker, and author, Alexi shares her incredible journey from the track to the big screen, discussing her experiences as an elite athlete and a creative storyteller. This episode delves into the highs and lows of pursuing multiple passions, the importance of resilience, and how to find your unique path in life. Whether you’re an athlete, artist, or someone looking to make a difference, Alexi’s story offers valuable insights and motivation.

Resources Mentioned:

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Time Stamps:

00:00 – Introduction
00:11 – Guest Introduction: Alexi Pappas
09:57 – Flow State and the Importance of Hard Days
11:35 – Timeline Nutrition Advertisement
12:25 – The Process of Making “Track Town”
13:51 – The Challenge of Running
17:08 – Favorite Running Events
21:03 – Development Periods and Personal Growth
37:44 – Managing Expectations in Relationships
41:42 – Dartmouth to Oregon: Athletic Transition
48:00 – The Potential Seen by Coach Coogan
50:06 – Training Differences and Achievements
56:10 – Personal Motivation and Athletic Drive
01:10:25 – Olympic Village Experience
01:11:13 – Our Place Advertisement
01:23:20 – Alexi Pappas’s Competitive Edge
01:24:22 – Life Experiences as Tokens
01:25:03 – Balancing Film and Athletic Careers
01:45:46 – Overcoming Fear of Rejection
02:05:15 – Running Tips for Beginners
02:09:10 – The Joy of Guiding Visually Impaired Runners
02:09:28 – The Importance of Listening
02:11:08 – Connecting with Fans and Social Media
02:12:29 – The Color Green and Personal Preferences
02:12:55 – Closing Remarks
02:13:28 – Podcast Outro and Upcoming Projects

Show Transcript:

All right, Alexi Pappas, welcome to the show. And, uh, we have a lot to cover because you are a person who not only, I think we’re all a lot of things, but very few of us. get to experience it. And I think it make it come to maturity at the levels that you have from Olympics to making movies. I think we do it usually in more subtle ways.

And when I was doing my homework, I realized, um, I lost, uh, I didn’t live with my parents from two to seven, but when I was five, my dad died in a plane crash and you lost your mom very early. And, you know, there’s a lot of things I think we think what if they had been around or whatever, but oftentimes what I have tried to do is look at, well, what has made me better because I didn’t have my dad?

Because it’s so easy to do the other. Right. And I think it’s obviously different when you have a mom, it’s your mom. It’s just, it’s a mom. It’s just different. But I was thinking about this and I, cause I thought, uh, okay, I didn’t have my dad. So maybe I actually became. More of the masculine, I developed more masculine energy as maybe a compensation, which helped me in sports.

It helped me understand men, eventually I married a man, understand them better, things like that. I wondered, given all that you have done in your life, if you’ve ever thought about the flip, not what was sad about not having your mom, but maybe what gave you extra superpower.

[00:04:00] Alexi Pappas: Mm hmm. Yeah. Well, it’s interesting that you even pointed out because I feel like, like, it’s hard to even imagine something that you don’t have, right?

Like we can really only, it’s hard. I mean, there’s the imagination, right? But to visualize what you actually are is easier. So to know what you were without your dad or what I am without a mom is more like what, what you really are. Right. Right. Um, and I guess the, some of the. Superpowers were, or if that’s what we’re calling them, some of the like what happened or the overcome,

[00:04:38] Gabby: you know, listen, in some ways it’s the overcompensation that you end up having to try to dial back.

[00:04:43] Alexi Pappas: Right.

[00:04:43] Gabby: Because it’s like, yeah, that was great for survival, but let’s calm down now.

[00:04:47] Alexi Pappas: Yeah.

[00:04:47] Gabby: So yeah.

[00:04:49] Alexi Pappas: Well, look, I think that there was, um, I was aware that there was a lot of commentary from other moms. You know, cause like, so what, what I’m going to say is a reflection on what I assume I didn’t get also in what I got from not getting.

So what I didn’t get was any kind of guidance, which was hard. And so I had to learn how to guide myself, but what I also didn’t get was like opinions and commentary. And so I also had decision making. Entirely in my hands, whether it’s like what I wore, what I said, what I did. Um, and my dad is pretty passive and not like super, you know, strongly opinionated toward those things either.

So I think what I got was like. A runway to just create and become and, and needed to, because I knew that there was no, no one to pick up the phone to tell me what to do. And that has been hard, like in this, in this, in this separation that I went through, I, so many times I was like, man, it only gets worse and worse to not have a mom.

[00:05:56] Gabby: Cause

[00:05:56] Alexi Pappas: I was like, this is when people call their mom. This is when the mom. And those are all assumptions. Right. But, uh, I genuinely was like, I am nobody’s problem. But I was like, good thing I have the ability to solve my own problems too. So

[00:06:13] Gabby: it’s so it’s so interesting because I always tell my single friends, just enjoy and celebrate whatever there is about being single.

If you’re married, that if you have young children and it’s a total shit show, seek the beauty in that. And I think If we actually can do that and all the things, we end up further ahead because I was talking to Laird about this when it comes to parenting. Do you ever see those desk, um, displays with like the wave that just sloshes back and forth.

It’s like water that moves from one side and then once it gets to the other side, it goes all the way back. And it feels like in parenting, you’re going to this one side, here’s the reaction over here. So then you try to balance it out. But it’s just this never ending seesaw that you, you actually won’t get right.

Because if you go all the way this one way and then the other and all those things. So I think life has that. And you know, from sport, because there’s, you know, I loved your video on, I think it was a coach maybe that talked to you about the thirds. Maybe you could just share that really quick. Quickly, because I think it’s important

[00:07:22] Alexi Pappas: that was my says my Olympic coach and he, uh, he was an Olympian as well.

And so, you know, sometimes you have to hear the things from the right people where it’s like everything you say is meaningful to me. Um, and he, uh, he saw me struggle tremendously and succeed. Right. And equal measures. And he was the one who pulled me when I was looking too crappy. Right. And there was one day when I was looking terrible, feeling terrible a month out from the Olympics and he didn’t pull me from the workout.

And I was like, well, what’s going on? He’s like, it’s okay, Lex. Like it’s the rule of thirds. And I was like, I don’t know what that is. And he said, when you’re trying to do something hard, like chase this Olympic dream, you have the Olympics in a month. You are. Supposed to feel good a third of the time. Okay.

A third of the time and crappy a third of the time are not great. Right. Whatever language you use. And this was a crappy day. Right. And so he was like, you’re going to keep doing the workout. But that is a part of the dream. As long as it’s not eight crappy days in a row, this is really good. And then I started to become more jockey about it and being like, yeah, this is a bad day.

And I’m like, gonna just like keep crying on the track, but like finish the workout as best I can. And I started to believe in it. And it’s actually so fun when you believe in this rule of thirds or whatever it is for you, because those crappy days can be so, Romantic, because you’re like, it’s a crappy day in my big pursuit of life.

[00:09:00] Gabby: Yeah. Well, I feel like it’s, I feel like those are the days that we really understand ourselves and how we actually feel. We give ourself almost that permission and, and then simultaneously it’s like we can adore it. and get back up and say, okay, I can do it, but I don’t know that I’m connected to how I’m actually feeling when it’s going great.

[00:09:23] Alexi Pappas: It’s like

[00:09:23] Gabby: all the lessons don’t come in winning. They come when you lose.

[00:09:27] Alexi Pappas: Do you think it’s because when you’re winning, like there’s like the sensations are like the resistance isn’t there. So there’s not actually like a thing to like reflect off of because it’s all smooth.

[00:09:40] Gabby: Yeah. And I think you’re probably more in flow state.

Yeah. So it’s sort of happening. And it maybe it’s those divine moments where all the elements just come together. It was the right training and it’s the right day and it’s the right temperature and it’s the right sneakers and you hydrated and it’s your day.

[00:09:57] Alexi Pappas: It

[00:09:57] Gabby: could also be it’s your day. So I, I think that it’s sort of like being in relationship.

The only way I can really know myself is to be In relationship to another person and that’s also I think why it’s challenging. So when you, when you, when you shared that third rule, and I know a lot of people have seen that, I thought it was, It’s just really important because we’re scared of that.

[00:10:20] Alexi Pappas: What, the hard days?

[00:10:22] Gabby: I still fight it. And then I’m like, really, like how many times have you been here? Just go with it. Cause that’s also where the change occurs. Like obviously something’s not working. Maybe I should take another look at that. Whether it’s in business. I mean, you’re in the film business, whether it’s in sport, whether it’s in relationship, whether it’s in your self care, it’s like, Hey, something’s not working, pay attention.

And, and also if you’re building an Olympic dream, let’s say 2016, how’s that ever going to be easy?

[00:10:56] Alexi Pappas: To have the hard days.

[00:10:57] Gabby: No, meaning you can’t, you’re not going to be going to the Olympics and be like, yeah, it was no problem.

[00:11:04] Alexi Pappas: Yeah, no, it’s there. It’s hard for everyone. And that’s why when you get there, everyone is so respectful of each other because everybody knows That they don’t know what the specifics were of other people’s journeys, but they understand it was a big, you know, kismet and like brute force meeting each other to get there, you know, um, So yeah,

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Let’s go back to when you were 12, let’s say 11, 12. Did running find you or you find running like how to, I mean, in looking at your physique, I always think we also can gravitate towards certain things because you’re like, I’m kind of good at that. Or it seems harder for this person and I, this, I sort of seems easier for me and I, I know that that’s a shakeout and there’s a few athletes who could do multiple things, but let’s just say if I look at you, you think, yeah, that’s a, that makes sense.

Um, it’s not like, you know, say you’re, you’re trying to be a power lifter. It’s like, Oh, this body makes really great sense for that. But it is a brutal, it’s like swimming to me,

[00:15:54] Alexi Pappas: running.

[00:15:55] Gabby: It’s just brutal.

[00:15:57] Alexi Pappas: I love that. It is. And it’s like, what’s, and what’s

[00:16:00] Gabby: fun. Like when it’s over, do you know what I mean?

Because sports with balls, yes, they’re so fun and you have teammates are like, yeah, all these things. So when I see that and I go, oh man, what is it?

[00:16:11] Alexi Pappas: Well, that’s why I didn’t run when I was younger. Like I played all these other sports, right? Like I love soccer, love softball, love basketball, didn’t love gymnastics because they were like kind of, it was too intense, too soon, too individual.

I wasn’t flexible enough. I was gonna

[00:16:28] Gabby: ask you how’s the flexibility. No, they would

[00:16:30] Alexi Pappas: like step on our backs. Like I remember I would like do that. Like whatever you’re, you’re kind of doing a kind of the splits and they would step on our backs. And I was like, no, do not step on my back. I’m like eight years old or whatever I was, you know, I was probably younger.

I was really like six, but these other sports lit me up like the team ones, because there’s nothing better. Then needing everybody to try their best, be their best and die for each other. Like make something means something that means nothing. Right. And running, um, I didn’t love it at first, right. But I was good at it.

And I also. Wanted to be good at something. So it was in my mind and I was like running in middle school, but I was doing these other sports and I think kids should do multiple sports, especially if they would like, if, if, if the vision is maybe they’ll end up doing one, that’s even more reason to do more than one.

Right. Because your bones, your muscles, like, can’t tell you how much I attribute the health of my Olympic running career to playing soccer. For most of my life, you know, until college and that was when I found a team that felt like a soccer team where I was like, Oh, I could like decorate shirts with these girls.

I could get lost in the woods with these girls. I could stay in on a Friday night. Um, and watch the people go to the parties, but not go when we wanted to win. Right. And so it had to be. Um, yeah, it had to be fun.

[00:18:03] Gabby: So what was, were you just exponentially better at running and what were you were going to have more opportunity and you, you knew that, like, if you said this, like, okay, I want it to be good at something.

Did you think I have the chance at being, The best at that. And that’s why you chose it.

[00:18:20] Alexi Pappas: Um, I didn’t know how good I would be because I, uh, I, I knew that I had unreached potential in high school because I got kicked off my high school team twice in running because the coach, uh, he was an alcoholic. He was very impressionable and he he he Was encouraged to make everyone just run.

And I wasn’t ready when I was, I was 16. Right. And I was like, number two in California and running, but I loved soccer. And he was like, you can’t do anything but run. No student government, no theater, no nothing. If you miss a practice, you’re off the team. And I was like, all right. And I missed practice.

Cause I wanted to decorate the hallway for spirit week. And so I didn’t run, but I knew I had not reached my potential. And so that felt unfair, but I was also like, if I’m being real with myself right now, It’s not making me happy to just run. So it was kind of like a shelved ambition. And then when I, this was before social media and so college recruitment for running was heavily just a piece of paper of a descending list of times.

And I met certain criteria to be recruited and I was curious about it, but it needed to feel right. And so, but I knew, right, you know, that you have this like probable, uh, chance of being good, you don’t know how good. And, um, and then it’s embracing the word development, right? Like it doesn’t, nothing happens overnight.

It took like the two or three years that I was out of running to get even in shape to score a single team point. You know, I was bad, like I was last on my Dartmouth team. I was crawling across finish lines. I was like cheering from the sidelines. And. That’s okay. Because I knew it was in there. I just knew I couldn’t take shortcuts and get there.

You know, yeah.

[00:20:09] Gabby: Where do you, because I think people go through this in just different arenas, not just sport where you go, it’s in there. I just have to go through that development process. What is your, You know, what things did you put in place as a young person? That’s hard. Yeah, you know 18 19 you’re Emotional it’s maybe I don’t want to say we’re more dramatic when we’re younger I don’t mean that in a condescending way, but let’s face it.

We are we have less life’s experience So everything does seem sometimes a little you know, this is the end of the world kind of thing What were your practices in place? that you were like, that you got up every day and you thought, no, I can continue.

[00:20:49] Alexi Pappas: Um, I just saw this thought that like, we should really label that period of time when you’re like, not, not pursuing something, but you’re like, definitely not there yet.

Like development isn’t like a sexy word,

[00:21:03] Gabby: but

[00:21:03] Alexi Pappas: if there was a word for it, I mean, it’s kind of like, When the butterflies and the chrysalis or whatever, but it feels like we’re more active in that time. So it doesn’t quite feel right to say that, but if there was a word for it, that’s like, I’m in the milkshake or like, I’m in the blender, like, I don’t know what it is, then maybe people would feel like it’s actually like.

Uh, uh, like, uh, it’s official, it’s not something to rush through. And it’s something that people go through. Um, when I was in the blender, um, when I was in this time between, I remember, uh, just trying to find ways to contribute and matter no matter what. So for me, that did mean I showed up to like the first cross country meet.

I wasn’t brought to the meet because I wasn’t, On the travel squad, but I took my own bus to New York and more like a snakeskin bodysuit and cheered next to a guy from Brown wearing a Burger King King costume at the top of the hill. And I was like, well, I matter like my teammates need me at the top of this, this, this legendary bear cage hill or whatever, you know, and, um, so I was like a funny girl kind of, I was like a mascot, but I mattered.

Um, and so I think having a role is really important, right? Having value and knowing that that could evolve. You want it to be a team point, but right now you’re a mascot. Cool. So it was that, and it was, it was basically saying, am I progressing? And that’s like a question people don’t usually champion.

Cause they don’t realize like, if you’re progressing in anything, whether you’re healing an injury or you’re trying to be the best. Yeah. That’s all you can ask for that is the win is just progress, right? And if you’re not progressing, then we have to ask harder questions of, am I doing the right actions that would lead to progress?

But if you are progressing, like, what do you have to complain about? That is the process, right?

[00:22:55] Gabby: Mm hmm.

[00:22:56] Alexi Pappas: Is that It makes me weepy

[00:22:57] Gabby: when I actually think about that, because it’s so true. It’s very true. I wonder, though, you have to have enough self belief and good ego to go to the Olympics and have a national time record and run in very brutal races.

I mean, the distances that you’re running, I mean, and especially like living in my body, I look at that and I go, yeah, no, thanks. Like that is my biggest nightmare besides like singing on stage, uh, gymnastics too. I look at that language and I go, I don’t speak that language, you know, the physics on that. I just go, but to stand there, to get yourself there, your team’s doing it.

You’re being a value, but it’s a weird calibration of ego.

[00:23:45] Alexi Pappas: And I feel like,

[00:23:46] Gabby: well, I feel like we have to do that, right? It’s like, I’m good enough that I’ll get there and I’ll, I will contribute in another way, but then somehow I can pull back. And you know, I, here we call it, I call it farmer flower, like sometimes Laird’s the flower and I’m the farmer and I’m happy to be the farmer.

I’m like that for my kids, of course, but then sometimes I’m like, yeah, no, I, it’s, I’m the flower and y’all can be the farmer. Right. So in that moment for you to be able to do that at that age, because we don’t know that we can click in and out of it, right. We either think, Hey, if the light’s not on me, I won’t be able to do it.

So how do you think you, you had that ability?

[00:24:30] Alexi Pappas: You mean to basically like feel okay farming myself and your teammates and your team being that letting them be the flowers.

[00:24:38] Gabby: You’re standing at the top of the hill. Maybe you gave the guy from Brown a little elbow. I mean, where do you, cause that’s sometimes that takes people out.

[00:24:47] Alexi Pappas: Yeah, that’s a good question. Okay. I think. Cause like, I’m pretty, like, I guess I’m like kind of a, like a, I’m a metaphorical thinker. Like I like images and blah, blah, blah, but I like processes too. And, and having like systems and things. And so I think it was, I had previously had a conversation with myself that I’d committed to where I was like, I believe that there is reason.

to try this for a period of time and see where progress can take me, right? So you make an agreement with yourself. It’s almost like a contract. Like we sign these athletic contracts and you’re in it, you’re in it for however long this term is. So I’ve signed this contract with myself. I’m going to try this for whatever it is, a season and then check in whatever it is, a year, two years, maybe people really want it, whatever.

So I’m in it, I’m in the contract. And then Uh, I think then you tick the boxes. Am I progress? Like it is, you go back to, am I progressing? And then I think what you’re asking is in the moments where you’re being a gardener for your teammates who are the flowers, how do you feel okay in that?

[00:25:58] Gabby: Yeah. Well, I think it’s, it’s hard to hold space for such powerful personal belief and the belief in your process while you’re in that uncomfortable of becoming and then supporting and watching people that are, it’s such an interesting thing to house.

I understand it, but I’m just fascinated how you were able to do that.

[00:26:21] Alexi Pappas: I think you have to have a sense of humor. I think you have to just be like, wow, I’m in this. Swansea, I used to be really, really good. I know I could be better than all these girls, but I know that there’s a truth that I won’t be there today.

So it’s like, truth is actually really peaceful and positive. Like if someone rejects you, or if you’re simply not fit enough, you’re simply injured, like in truth, there’s so much freedom in that. So if you can in earnest honor where you are right now, like I am as fit as I am. I’m number eight on the team.

Only five are running. I know where I am, but I, but I’ve already committed to the process. I believe that I can get there. Then you can hold those things at the same time. And then, um, maybe it’s this thing where, okay. Okay. Okay. How about we talk about like. So there’s a goal in mind, right? The goal is to be good and to be the flower in this story.

[00:27:19] Gabby: Well, cause for you, it would be about winning.

[00:27:23] Alexi Pappas: Sure. To win whatever the goal is. Um, there are steps that everyone goes through to get to their goal. And what’s cool is that like the goal, uh, may or may not happen. Right. We all know that. But whether or not the goal happens, the process. That we have to get to the goal.

If we’re pursuing it with integrity, it looks the same, right?

[00:27:50] Gabby: That’s right.

[00:27:51] Alexi Pappas: And so if we assume that maybe that is going to happen, and we actually, we also don’t know, then the pro then when we look back, we’re going to associate the whole journey there as a, as a part of that dream, and we’re going to, we’re going to be so romantic about it when it does happen.

And so why not be more romantic about it? Well, It’s happening regardless of the result. Like, I just think there’s something so romantic and not in like a sexy way in like a, wow, look at me chasing this thing that I don’t know I’m going to get. And like, look at me at the, like, there’s a storytelling that makes everything a little bit more like you’re a Pixar character.

You know what I mean? Like, I think that’s what it is. It’s like, instead of being like, woe is me, you could be like, I’m like that kid that’s not going to win, but maybe I am, you know, it’s like, yeah. Yeah. And that’s a choice.

[00:28:42] Gabby: I think it is really interesting as somebody who’s getting ready to talk to you.

And I’ve obviously seen you in other places and listen to your conversations. You are a very interesting contrast of somebody who seems like they’d be picking daisies and shooting, you know, a sniper. Like it’s so interesting. It’s, it is for me, it was real, it’s fascinating. And it’s, uh, it’s actually so beautiful to witness because not many people like that.

If they went running, you’re on time. It’s all about times and the amount of. You know, consistency, you know, runners are like swimmers. They don’t take days off. They’re running all the time. And then you’re writing movies and, and, and, you know, creating characters, um, that has that sort of fantastical romantic element to it.

So it seems like you naturally can, can sort of call to both the sniper and the daisy picker pretty easily, easier than most, I would think. It looks like

[00:29:45] Alexi Pappas: yeah, and they’re kind of similar like to push you have to let go right like to go crazy in a race and like when it really hurts to go faster. You kind of have to like.

Double down. Maybe that’s the sniper. And then you have to just like, basically like surrender to whatever the sensation is and keep going. Like they’re both, they’re like holding hands.

[00:30:09] Gabby: What does that, what does that look like to surrender to that kind of discomfort? Because again, certain sports have a stop and start.

So you almost get them second to kind of, okay, I catch my breath as you know, whatever it is. When you’re in that last kind of kick in a race and you aren’t going to stop. And it’s uncomfortable. Where do you go in your mind, that relationship with that discomfort and how do you turn over to it?

[00:30:39] Alexi Pappas: Um, well, the truth is that practices always hurt more than races.

Like the practices were where you were, where you actually did eight reps, said, ready, set, go again and again. When do you know how much it hurt? That’s hard. That’s really hard. And the practices were where you didn’t hit the times, right? Like you went to the well sometimes, which is like, you will not come out of this.

Pretty. Um, and so it always felt like the races were, I was like prepared for those, but. Look, there’ve been races since like, I ran a hundred miles last year, really untrained. And that was really hard. And I had to walk a lot of it, but I was like, I’m not dropping out. And I think, um, what it takes to, to, to, to lean in when it hurts is, um, I guess what it is, is it feels more like.

You decide and then you lean in and then whatever feelings that come, as long as it’s not like an injury, I just tried to process it as a sensation. Like you feel something, but you’re like, there’s a sensation. Yes. I feel something, but I’m almost like swallowing it. Like you swallow anything, uh, I guess that, that feeling.

[00:32:05] Gabby: Yeah.

[00:32:06] Alexi Pappas: Does what? How do you feel when you

[00:32:08] Gabby: It, it’s totally different. I would never have the audacity to compare. I’ve had moments in training that are uncomfortable. Mm-Hmm. . But my sport wasn’t that.

[00:32:17] Alexi Pappas: Right? And your sport’s really interesting to me. Is it? Yes, because it’s, it’s like it, they’re very specific roles, right?

Like. And, uh, uh, and I, you know, I spoke to Victoria Brown and she was sharing about how specific everybody is and how basically you have to basically that you can. If you do well, that’s the base. Like you’re, you’re expected to do what you’re expected to do. And that’s crazy to me. It’s not heroic to do your job,

[00:32:53] Gabby: do your job.

[00:32:54] Alexi Pappas: It’s do your job. And I was like, what? Cause in most sports, maybe, maybe I’m sure there’s plenty of sports where that is the case, right? Maybe it’s gymnastics is like that, where it’s like, do the job, do the thing. I don’t know, but it’s different, but I just find it so fascinating that everyone is there to like, Do that job.

And that’s the minimum requirement is do it perfectly.

[00:33:16] Gabby: Yeah. And, and so if you go indoor, it’s really geared that way, like a watch.

[00:33:21] Alexi Pappas: Okay. And if

[00:33:21] Gabby: you go to beach, it’s, you know, there’s a little bit more, we’re all doing everything, but it’s still a different version of that expectation. And, and then it’s sort of like, okay, well, if you do your job and they beat you.

That’s okay,

[00:33:35] Alexi Pappas: but they’ve got to

[00:33:36] Gabby: earn it.

[00:33:36] Alexi Pappas: So it’s like the difference between mental and technical errors.

[00:33:40] Gabby: Yes. And also you’re playing percentages. So if I give you this part, if I’m giving you this shot, I’m putting that in quotes that is on a statistical screen. the lower shot for you to do, meaning the higher percentage for margin for error.

There’s all these things. So I’m going to push you and say, okay, if you can do that shot, which is harder and your odds for making a mistake are much greater, you can have that point. I’ll give you that. But I’m going to take the area that, uh, is, is sort of, I have to take hit the area where your greatest odds for not making a mistake are happening.

So if you are ballsy and you have enough control, then that’s why you ever see tennis players when somebody makes a shot and they instantly tap their racket, like they applaud them because it’s like, Hey,

[00:34:31] Alexi Pappas: you did that. You

[00:34:32] Gabby: took, you took the riskier shot. You made it happen. You executed. That’s good on you.

I did what I could do. Wait,

[00:34:39] Alexi Pappas: how does that affect you in like relationship with other people?

[00:34:43] Gabby: What do you mean?

[00:34:44] Alexi Pappas: Well, I just am so, because if the way that you related to like. Your teammates was like an expectation That you’re here to do what you’re here to do. You better do what you’re doing

[00:34:53] Gabby: Yep,

[00:34:54] Alexi Pappas: so that’s like a way of relating to people.

That’s like very that’s that’s like there’s a there’s an arrangement here, right? There’s an expectation. I have

[00:35:01] Gabby: it in my marriage for sure Well,

[00:35:03] Alexi Pappas: and I have a problem with this too with like I talked to wes about this

[00:35:07] Gabby: Uh huh,

[00:35:07] Alexi Pappas: we went on a run and we were talking about Okay, okay, okay. I don’t mean to get off subject.

We can,

[00:35:12] Gabby: it’s okay.

[00:35:13] Alexi Pappas: We were talking about having goals.

[00:35:15] Gabby: And

[00:35:15] Alexi Pappas: basically, like, I realized that in every interaction, if I don’t remind myself, like, there’s actually no goal here, we’re just hanging out. I will have a goal, because I’m used to having goals. And I, like, in, like, romantic stuff, I have to remind myself, like, there’s no goal here.

Like, it doesn’t matter what happens. You know what I mean? Or with friendships. With going to dinner, there’s no goal, and it can really mess you up if you think there’s a goal in every interaction. You’re like, that’s awful.

[00:35:41] Gabby: But sometimes there could be a goal. Of course. Like, no meaning, like, no, like, maybe this has come later in my life.

[00:35:48] Alexi Pappas: Hmm.

[00:35:49] Gabby: My, my goal when I interact with the people, whether it’s a person at the grocery store or my partner, is I’m going to try

[00:35:58] Alexi Pappas: To

[00:35:59] Gabby: bring my best.

[00:36:00] Alexi Pappas: Okay.

[00:36:01] Gabby: And, and that just means I’ll come in with the attitude first. And it’s conscious because I’m not gonna naturally react this way. Mm-Hmm. , I’m gonna come with my warmest, uh, most loving, pleasant, not like, oh, how are you?

Uh, like I might slip into that and say, Hey, I’m having a hard day, but I may not lead with that.

[00:36:23] Alexi Pappas: But that’s a goal for yourself. I’m talking correct about a goal. For the interaction.

[00:36:28] Gabby: Oh, yeah. No,

[00:36:28] Alexi Pappas: that’s what I’ve had to like, Oh, do

[00:36:31] Gabby: you have that amazing

[00:36:33] Alexi Pappas: trained it out of myself? Because it’s like, what does that

[00:36:35] Gabby: look like?

Like a goal in a romantic scenario? That’s, I

[00:36:38] Alexi Pappas: would mean like, like, you could be with a guy and like, expect sex. And like, it’s like, no, like, that’s not he’s like, I just met

[00:36:46] Gabby: you. No, not like

[00:36:47] Alexi Pappas: that. But like, you could be like, You could be like, I mean, that’s so embarrassing, but you could be like, Oh, we’re like, Yeah, you could expect that something is gonna lead to something whether it’s physical or I expect that Someone’s gonna ask me something.

I’m expecting to be asked how my day was and it’s like first of all, Like you can have a goal or I expect You could expect anything and then you’re not really present, right? You’re not letting it be a relationship. You’re really Trying to get something out of it and that’s not effective. It’s wrong.

It’s not pleasant for anybody It’s stressful for you because you’re like reaching for something that you don’t need to reach for and I’m I’m like much You know, and you know, I’m growing out of it, but it took a while of reminding myself, like in this interaction, also in Hollywood, look, a lot of like meetings are like, you take a dinner meeting and it’s like, yeah, there are actually goals there.

So like sometimes that’s

[00:37:44] Gabby: appropriate.

[00:37:45] Alexi Pappas: That’s fine. Yeah. But I’m just saying our lives kind of blend everything to the point where if I don’t, if I’m not mindful before I go into a situation of like, what is this really. I might not like orient correctly, you know, and I’m getting way better, but, um, I think that’s a weird.

[00:38:02] Gabby: No, I think, but I think so going back to the team analogy.

[00:38:07] Alexi Pappas: Yeah.

[00:38:08] Gabby: I don’t have the expectation. I never had the expectation that my teammates would do X, Y, and Z. I only put that on myself.

[00:38:15] Alexi Pappas: Oh, really?

[00:38:16] Gabby: Yeah. And now they’re in charge of themselves.

[00:38:18] Alexi Pappas: Okay. And the

[00:38:19] Gabby: coach can be in charge of the whole unit.

[00:38:21] Alexi Pappas: Okay.

[00:38:21] Gabby: But.

I mean, you might, if there was sort of five weird errors in a row, you might be like, Hey, at the end of the day, it is like any relationship. I can only manage myself. So you’ll make whatever choices and moves and decisions you’re going to make. And I’ll react or adjust accordingly, but I’m not here to police you or be your mom or your coach or tell you what to do, unless that’s my role,

[00:38:50] Alexi Pappas: like

[00:38:51] Gabby: I’m the coach.

Okay, that’s different. So I think going to a meeting, let’s say, You’re making a movie and you have a person and maybe they’re gonna either funded or that’s usually probably the thing, right? The biggest thing let’s fund it. Let’s go, you know Is your goal might be i’m going to try to communicate this? And tell them the storyline and draw them in and do my best job at that And then not have the expectation whether they will give or not but You certainly have to have a direction as why are you having this dinner?

[00:39:23] Alexi Pappas: For sure. I’m more talking about, that, that, yes. Are you talking about? I’m talking about friendships. I’m talking about with like, like other human interactions. Yeah. Like, Uh, the ones that are not work. Basically strategic. Yeah. Yeah. The ones that don’t need to be, and the ones where you can find something better without having a goal.

Mm. You know?

[00:39:45] Gabby: Yeah.

[00:39:45] Alexi Pappas: Um, but yeah, and I’m fascinated by Yeah. I, I like talking about your sport because I think it’s such a. It’s very, I guess it does have some similarities to soccer and like how you orient and things,

[00:39:59] Gabby: Well, and it’s all connected like a thread, right? So I can’t do what I need to do if you’re not doing what you need to do.

And that harmony between that tension of that thread, which is connected by the ball, which is so glorious and rhythmic. And that’s why it’s so beautiful.

[00:40:17] Alexi Pappas: How, how aware are you of your opponents in a, in a game? Like, are you looking at them? Are you? Yeah, certainly.

[00:40:25] Gabby: Oh, certainly. And so you’re looking at even weight, like my position, for example, indoor was to pay attention to.

Where the pat which side the past is coming from all of a sudden you’re understanding odds right then

[00:40:39] Alexi Pappas: good

[00:40:39] Gabby: pass, bad pass, low pass, high pass. That means very different things can happen different options. Then you’re looking at the body weight, a really good setter can fake out. just by looking like they’re going to the right and pushing the ball back.

So really good setters are dangerous. They’ll jump set, which is even worse. Cause then you don’t know until the last second where they’re going to do with the ball hitters. It’s, it’s all that, but you first have to take care of your side

[00:41:07] Alexi Pappas: and

[00:41:07] Gabby: take into consideration the other side, but really great hitters.

For example, they’ll be in the air. And they’re looking, they’ve, they know sort of where the ball is. They’ve jumped up to meet the ball and they are looking at their opponents to see what side they’re favoring, where the blocker’s hands are. So they’re understanding what’s happening. What are their chances?

Am I going for it? But the block’s there. Am I going to put it right over their head because the defenders, you know, they can put it down the line, whatever. So I think that it’s first taking care of your side. But certainly, you’re watching them.

[00:41:42] Alexi Pappas: Yeah, it is cool. Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, it’s. I love it. There’s players

[00:41:46] Gabby: that literally you’ll be blocking them and they’re looking down and you’re like, do you want to look back up at the ball?

They look as long as you possibly can because they’re trying to psych you out. But awesome. So you go to Dartmouth and you end up though at Oregon

[00:42:00] Alexi Pappas: for a fifth year.

[00:42:01] Gabby: Yeah. So how is your senior, your fourth year at Dartmouth? What, how does that look? And what, and what was different about you physically and mentally by then?

[00:42:12] Alexi Pappas: By then I stopped drinking. Alcohol?

[00:42:15] Gabby: Yep. What was your, what was your, your drink of choice? Just a bunch

[00:42:18] Alexi Pappas: of beer and all the thin, all the things. Um, And Dartmouth is a drinking school, right? There’s like a lot of fraternities, sororities, and it’s in the woods. And, um, the seniors on our team, freshmen, sophomore year would take us drinking, whether we had a good race or a bad race, so it was what I was taught to do.

And then we had a transition of a coach and we had Mark Coogan come in, who was an Olympian. At the games in Atlanta. And I saw his race when I was six years old, he ran the marathon and obviously did not know he would become my coach, but he came in and he was like, all right. Like he told me you could go to the Olympics.

And that was a moment for me because when somebody tells you that, that you trust, you will trust them more than you trust yourself. And so I was like, all right. So I made some better decisions. I. I was in a, I was fit enough to get in shape. You know, you have to get in shape to get in shape. So I was in shape to get in shape and then I got in shape and then I got third in the country for the steeplechase, which was a sport I chose.

It’s fun. It was good because I had that soccer background. So it was like, okay, I wasn’t yet ready to run the 10 K. I didn’t have enough miles in me yet, but I could jump over stuff and stay up and be scrappy. And third, third in the country was, was as good as I was going to do. I think. Mm-Hmm. . Um, I think that was, that’s okay.

That was like one of those key, I don’t know why it beeps randomly,

[00:43:43] Gabby: but you’re, it’s, it’s very pleasant sounding.

[00:43:46] Alexi Pappas: Yeah. The little like, yeah. My keys are over here. Um, so I got third in the country and then got into all the top poetry schools in the country. And I was like a poet, like through and through at Dartmouth, like top, top poetry kid.

[00:43:59] Gabby: There’s poetry schools,

[00:44:01] Alexi Pappas: there’s creative writing programs. Yeah. And I was like a poetry and I was like. Top of the class, like I was going to be a poet and wrote, you know, was ready to become a poet. And then my friend was like, you could use your fifth year and go to Oregon and you could run. And so it was a thing that revealed itself.

And it was my poetry advisor, Cynthia, who had, um, MS, I think. MS is when your body is sort of in pain, right? And it’s.

[00:44:33] Gabby: Yeah.

[00:44:33] Alexi Pappas: So, so my poetry advisor had MS and she, I was like, I got into these programs. They’re fully funded. They’re the best in the country. And I, but I have this opportunity to run. And I thought she was going to be like, go to the poetry programs.

Like nobody gets into these schools. They admit two kids every year and nobody gets the scholarship. You know, I got the scholarship. Did you

[00:44:52] Gabby: know that that, did you know then that was unusual? Were you aware of that? Yeah. I was like,

[00:44:57] Alexi Pappas: this is amazing. And then she was like, you have to run. And this was, I was close with her.

She was older and she was like, look, my body’s falling. She didn’t say like that. She was just like, you don’t know how long your body’s going to feel like this. You need to go run. And she was like, you will write for the rest of your life. And you will write about this experience. She was like, go run. And it was really important to get that advice from a writing advisor, not running.

[00:45:23] Gabby: Of course. Cause they weren’t trying to woo you to their side.

[00:45:26] Alexi Pappas: Yeah.

[00:45:27] Gabby: Did she, is she alive?

[00:45:29] Alexi Pappas: Yeah. She’s, she’s still at Dartmouth. I think she’s like, you know, teaching probably less, but she’s there. She’s amazing. She like healed her. Pain through like this certain diet where she would like forage mushrooms with her dog sugar and cook steak and bacon fat.

Like it was this like shoes. And she made me my first birthday cake of my life on my 21st birthday. I slept at her house, which I know that sounds weird. But that back then at Dartmouth, it was like, sometimes your advisors were like, come for dinner. It was the best night ever. I slept at her house and she gave me a mug that I still have my writing mug.

Um, yeah. And so then I pursued the running. Were you scared

[00:46:09] Gabby: to go to Oregon? Yeah, I felt sick. For people who don’t know, I mean, I think most people do, the, I mean, that is the running, the lineage of that school. I mean, I feel like the town is completely impacted.

[00:46:25] Alexi Pappas: Taktown, USA, baby. It’s crazy.

[00:46:27] Gabby: Seriously, it’s, uh, you know, I was with Nike for a long time and friends with, uh, Tinker Hatfield did my shoe there.

Oh, I

[00:46:35] Alexi Pappas: know Tinker. Mm hmm. He read my book and he is so nice.

[00:46:38] Gabby: He’s a beautiful person.

[00:46:39] Alexi Pappas: Yeah. Does he live down here?

[00:46:41] Gabby: No.

[00:46:42] Alexi Pappas: He lives in Oregon. Yeah,

[00:46:43] Gabby: he does. Oh, yeah. He’s very special. Um, Tinker Hatfield is a very famous designer from, uh, from Nike who originally when Jordan retired the first time, you know, they were going to shelve brand Jordan and when he went to baseball and Tinker was like, are you guys crazy?

And so he has really, um, been responsible. And when I was with them. I started with them in 92. They go, well, we’re going to have Tinker Hatfield design your shoe. And I thought, okay, you can’t go wrong with that. But anyway, the, the point is, is that even Nike originally, most of the employees came from Oregon and they were track athletes.

Yeah. You know, Tinker was a high jumper and I mean, uh, Paul Walter and, um, you know, you just see that as the lineage. So you go there, are you, Are you intimidated? And, like, what’s going on? And, and did you think before that when you were at Dartmouth, like, let’s say your sophomore year, were you ever thinking about the Olympics?

[00:47:38] Alexi Pappas: No. I mean, yes, like, I wanted to be an Olympian like any little Mia Hamm jock did, right? I was like a little Mia Hamm kid. I was like a sweatband girl. I was like Mia Hamm Britney Spears kid. So I was like, yes, of course I wanted to be an Olympian. But it didn’t seem possible. Mark put it in my head junior year, right?

Coogan, the coach. But what does he

[00:48:00] Gabby: see? Just tell me objectively now, this isn’t you bragging on you. What is it he sees in you as an athlete? Because he knows something, obviously he was an Olympian and there’s things we can see about athletes where they go, Oh, they naturally have that. What did he see in you that he, he thought that.

[00:48:17] Alexi Pappas: Look, I think that he probably saw. Like he probably saw some, some sort of like grace in stride, right? Like even if you can’t go 10, 000 meters yet, if you can go A thousand meters and look like you’re meant to be doing it, right? You could probably imagine that in any sport where you’re like, that person is in stride or like they’re, they’re in harmony with that sport.

So I think I was in harmony with the sport in a way that was scalable. It’s a movie term we’re using. This could be scaled from one. Um, so maybe he saw that,

[00:48:55] Gabby: mhm.

[00:48:56] Alexi Pappas: And he probably also factored in how, how untrained I was. Cause I hadn’t run that many miles in total compared to some of these girls that have been running.

Junior, senior year of high school. And I was only running like 30 miles a week. Freshman year of college, people are running 70 miles a week. So I was like, I was like fresh. Yeah, it was fresh. I mean, don’t you think

[00:49:15] Gabby: after there’s also sort of hours on the parts?

[00:49:19] Alexi Pappas: Yeah. I mean, Nick Simmons used to say, and maybe someone else said it, that you get like 10 years or 10, 000 miles in running.

And I don’t think he’s wrong. I think he is more wrong than I used to think because we’re seeing people with these like tremendous careers in their thirties after. Something unusual, like a pause or a child or something and do great things, but maybe they’re doing great things differently.

[00:49:42] Gabby: Yeah. And, and it’s like nutrition, footwear, uh, you know, all kinds of things that are maybe available.

Totally. Yeah.

[00:49:52] Alexi Pappas: Totally. But, um. So

[00:49:55] Gabby: you, that planted. You know, your coach telling you, so you go to Oregon, is the system different? Is the, are the athletes different as the training? Cause it’s probably a lot more like professional running

[00:50:06] Alexi Pappas: night and day. So night and day, so wild. So to tell you how different it was senior year of Dartmouth, we qualified, we really wanted to go to nationals and I was still not good enough to go on my own.

Um, uh, was it? Senior winter. I still hadn’t gone to nationals ever in anything, and we really wanted to go in a distance medley relay, and we worked every weekend, go to qualifying meets qualified. Try, try, try. We finally qualified in a last chance meet, was very unusual and we were ecstatic just to go to nationals.

We wanted to get the tattoo of the Dartmouth Lone Pine, and our coach was Mark. He was like, you can’t get the tattoo unless you get. Um, all American, like top eight and nationals. And we were like, Oh, we’re not going to get top eight. Like we’re barely even here. And then we were like, are you going to get it too?

And he’s like, I’ll get it if you get top three, if you podium. And there’s no way. Right. So we go to nationals. This is before I went to Oregon, Oregon’s there, Washington’s there. All the best kids are there. And some Florida state girls slowed down the race in the third leg out of four. And we had the best miler.

We just didn’t have the best overall squad. And that girl was dumb to slow it down because Abby, our girl got it. And we got third and you would have thought we won the world. We were crying. We were blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Everyone gets the tattoos. Mark gets the tattoo. And then we go to the awards. I mean, we get the tattoo after that we go to the awards and Oregon lost to Washington and they didn’t show up to the awards because they got second.

Yeah.

[00:51:37] Gabby: Did they want to win or not? They wanted

[00:51:38] Alexi Pappas: to win or nothing. And, and the coach was like, look at those Dartmouth girls. They look like they won. They got third. And that was like, well, that’s the team I’m about to join. I knew that by then. And so going there, I was like, this is a whole different set of expectations where the coach is going to try to tell me, you know, at Oregon, every team point can mean the difference between a national championship or not.

At Dartmouth, a team point is just. Joyful,

[00:52:05] Gabby: right?

[00:52:06] Alexi Pappas: So, and that team point really mattered, right? Yes. You’re like a professional athlete school is secondary tertiary to everything that’s athletic. It’s really fun. It’s fun in a different way. So I loved it. I’m glad it wasn’t four years of it. But I loved it.

[00:52:24] Gabby: Yeah. And the training facility they have there is off the charts. Yeah. I mean, it’s like, it is like a professional, even for their football team and everything. It’s a professional facility all the way around. What did you learn there as an athlete? Whether it’s in your preparation or something mental that you think was bolted on and, and sort of allowed you, Then, you know, to, to end up being an Olympian, what was there, was there a shift or anything a coach did or teammates where you needed to have that in order to go to the Olympics?

[00:53:02] Alexi Pappas: That’s a really good question because I’ve never thought about like what, cause I just got, I got fitter, right? That was what happened. But what did I learn? Um, I think, I mean, what I probably learned is that if you want to get to the highest level, it needs to be your full time job, right? Like, cause it really was priority in a way that it never was before, but that’s almost, that’s actually kind of a cool thing to learn.

Cause it’s like, if you put in the time. this can be here for you.

[00:53:36] Gabby: Yeah.

[00:53:36] Alexi Pappas: Um, I don’t know if that’s like, no, it makes sense. I think what’s interesting.

[00:53:40] Gabby: I’m curious your, your thoughts on this. I grew up on an Island and so did Laird,

[00:53:47] Alexi Pappas: but not the same kind of Island. Yeah. Where’d you grow up?

[00:53:50] Gabby: I grew up in the Virgin Islands and Laird grew up in Kauai, but sometimes, you know, that amount of output that you needed.

So you go to Oregon and there is something on the line national championships. So you think it’s worth. Putting that kind of energy into something. Sometimes, you know, when you, you, you know, if you come from a small town or whatever, it’s like, I mean, it could be good enough. But all of a sudden, when you turn up the stakes, then you think, Oh, this is worth all my hours going to bed early, not going to parties, killing myself, being in pain, making sure I go to rehab and prehab and all the unsexy things.

Are you able, and this is just selfish because I, I’m always trying to generate the kind of energy, even when a really clear thing isn’t on the line.

[00:54:38] Alexi Pappas: Okay. So you’re saying, are you able to like motivate and get up even when, when there’s not a clear, are you saying when you don’t know

[00:54:47] Gabby: the stage, for example, like, okay, if you’re writing or doing a movie, you don’t know if the thing is going to get me, but you got to get up every day and you’re going to grind it out.

I’m just wondering, because in a way, sometimes I do think that energy creates the next sort of. whether it’s championship or success or film or Olympic, whatever, but in people’s lives, I think what happens is they don’t have this thing, pour all that intensity. It’s like, what’s the point?

[00:55:13] Alexi Pappas: Their ambition is vague.

[00:55:15] Gabby: Yeah.

[00:55:17] Alexi Pappas: What do

[00:55:17] Gabby: you do when you’re, cause now you’re living more in the real world, even though it’s not totally the real world, thank God. Yes, where we

[00:55:23] Alexi Pappas: live is magical fairy land. No, for real. Driving to your house, I was like, I love this. Like this whole day. I was like, this is so great. Cause you go for me to get to my house, to your house.

I pass riches house actually. Cause it’s like, you know, you do, and then you do the cut through and then you do, it’s so awesome. Yeah.

[00:55:41] Gabby: It’s beautiful. It is. And like a Noel lamb, but it’s when it is vague. Cause I think a lot of people get here. Do you have any ideas about. Uh, you know, you wind up that turbine and you get it going and you generate all this energy.

Cause the thing is, is if we don’t have something to put it in, sometimes that energy is really painful to house. Yes. Cause it’s frustrating. Yes. You know, you have this energy and you want to direct it at something or somewhere. Wow. What do you do?

[00:56:08] Alexi Pappas: Oh, I love this question. Cause I feel like there’s probably a lot of people that feel this way.

Right. They’re like, I have the reservoir, like, but I don’t know where to put it or I don’t know how to harness it. And like, it’s almost like you have no kite, but you have wind or something. Um, so maybe, okay. So look, if we’re talking about like North stars or goals, when we are athletes chasing these goals, Olympics, whatever, It’s very clear that the North star is that thing.

And that’s what you’re waking up toward. And that, and it’s ever motivated by the fact that other people are waking up for it too. It’s fortified by the fact that the coach believes it’s possible. It’s fortified by the fact that you’re maybe on a scholarship for it. Like there’s so much that adds to the like focus of that energy and channeling of it through whatever small funnel it’s going, it’s strong.

And so what you’re talking about is. When there’s not that thing and not all the fortifiers, right? Well, look, I think that the goal, no matter what, if, whether we recognize it or not, there’s a value, um, or a feeling that’s associated with that goal. We don’t usually acknowledge it when we have such a clear goal.

So like the Olympics, what I didn’t acknowledge and what probably led to like the depression after was to acknowledge that, I really wanted that so that I could matter forever. And that was because like when my mom left, I was like, how could I possibly not have been compelling enough for her to stay?

Like why didn’t I compel her? And so I wanted to be compelling and, and to be happy, which it feels like that was, you know, I wanted all the things that either I didn’t feel like I was, or I didn’t feel she was. And then, but when you get there, you don’t really get that. And you realize that there was some feeling that I was chasing that wasn’t really going to match with that goal.

And okay. So that’s that, right. And you deal with it, whatever. But now in the real world, what you’re talking about is people who are possibly chasing more values and feelings and not as many specific goals, right. And we will always assign goals to our values and feelings. Cause that’s what we’re doing with our time.

Like, even if they’re little things, like I’m going to exercise every day, There’s still goals, but we’re starting with that feeling or the value. I want to be a good parent. I want to, um, help my community, whatever it is. And I think that to answer your question about like, how, how then do you kind of harness it and feel it?

It’s one to recognize what that value is. Like what North star do you have? That isn’t, that may have objective things underneath it. But there’s an overriding feeling or value that you are aligned with. And if you can recognize that, I think it’s helpful because then when goals come your way, first of all, it puts you in a universe, right?

Where people are around you that are affiliated with it. Like you and me in the room together, it’s like, I like meeting you and I’m meeting you because I’m generally in a universe now that’s not as pointed towards an Olympic goal. It’s just this like broad, like expansive, artistic, athletic value, whatever.

Right. And we’re both in that. And then the thing that keeps you going every day, cause that was really your question was like, how do you actually get it to ignite and keep going? And. Yeah. feel purposeful, I think, is to trust that there’s a mystery of the universe. In that unit that will reveal itself to you over and over and over again, if you show up and that you actually don’t know what all the objective goals will be, but they will, they will reveal themselves to you.

And then you’ll be attracted to them or not. And so it’s kind of like. Trusting that good things will come if you are moving toward your values in your North Star, and then you’ll, you’ll know it when you see it, right? But I’m motivated every day to be like, what’s in that treasure chest? And there’s bad stuff too, sure.

But I’m kind of like into it right now, whatever that is, that’s what I’m into right now, at least.

[01:00:22] Gabby: Well, I, I think what people don’t realize is they’ll see you and you went to the 2016 Olympics, and you know, you reached all these goals. And then you, you’ve talked openly about actually almost having a sort of a form of a quasi depression after, but

[01:00:37] Alexi Pappas: Mm-Hmm.

[01:00:39] Gabby: no one event is actually going to take care of it for you. Mm-Hmm. , it’s this thing that you just articulated, that our life is really made up of more so you’re not, because the minute you win the, you know, you go to the event, you win the national championship, you win the Super Bowl, you whatever the World Cup, these monumental things.

Think about that celebration. It’s just like, rah. And then you wake up the next day and they’re either going to ask you, are you going to defend this title or give it another six months or a year or two? If it’s the Olympics, give it three years and they’ll have, Oh, the next. So people don’t realize that what you’ve articulated is actually the thing that we spend a lot more time doing.

than in pursuit of these really sharp, definitive goals that end up in a different way punishing us. You going to the Olympics and, you know, running for Greece and having times for Greece and doing all this stuff, in a certain way, the price, there is a, there is a cost. And it wasn’t just hours of training.

It’s that when you’ve experienced, I think that sharp, sharp end of the stick, that excellence, you have to be okay with. That you won’t do it that way anymore.

[01:02:00] Alexi Pappas: That

[01:02:01] Gabby: you, because you felt it. And then you have to accept, I’m not going to do that.

[01:02:06] Alexi Pappas: And

[01:02:06] Gabby: so people never consider that. They just consider, well, that was cool.

You did that. It’s like, yeah, but now I have sort of this reference that I have to retranslate into an, into sort of an everyday life, but still be in pursuit of excellence, but for the sake of excellence, which is, can be really different. And so, you know, I really appreciate that you are one of some, you’re someone who has articulated talking about kind of the mental.

back and forth. And even how I’m not sure if it was hard for you when you were younger, when you were at Dartmouth, when you’re at Oregon, before the Olympics, if you dealt with, you know, sort of any emotionals, deep up and downs, or if that really came, you know, kind of after, because

[01:02:59] Alexi Pappas: it came after,

[01:03:00] Gabby: right.

Because when you have something to focus on, you actually also cannot have to deal with yourself. And, When you go really high, like go to the Olympics, I think people don’t realize that is tough after.

I have so many friends that have won every single thing you can ever think of because even if you’re, you work it out, it’s like the whole rest of the world is like, always comparing you back to it, or what are you doing now? Or do you still run? Or what do you think of her? It’s just like, Oh my gosh, like, I, I think people don’t understand, um, the art and things that you have to develop.

Yes. To, to move on.

[01:03:49] Alexi Pappas: Well, it’s like sports are like a playground, right? They’re not who we are and they’re just a playground for change, right? Cause that’s like how you get to be the best is you change so much that you are better in a very specific thing than other people, or you’re better than yourself yesterday.

And I think what people don’t realize is that what you get to keep forever, Is not only the awards and the things that people are looking at and identifying you with, but you are a system, you are a creature that can change. So you basically have a system inside of you that can then continue to change.

I think it’s not like you got yourself down this tiny little crevice that you have to crawl out of and then become something else. You actually just keep going and you push right on forward. And I wish athletes saw that in themselves basically to be like, I changed so much. No matter how far I actually got, I changed.

I changed. I changed. I changed. I evolved. And I know how to deal with all the steps that it takes to evolve. I can evolve. I could just keep evolving. It’s like we’re tumbling forward, but the challenge that you’re talking about is very real. Um, and, uh, I think. That we need to be more supportive of our, our peers and our little ones, you know, like, I, I feel like we could do better for the people, the younger girls in particular women to show them that like, life can be good after sport.

So after competitive Olympics training, so that they still do it, right. You don’t want to deter people from doing it because they’re afraid of the moment after. It’s just we could be better about making them feel like there’s a unique community that understands them.

[01:05:38] Gabby: Yeah, and I, I train with a lot of athletes and young athletes or the, you know, I see a lot of athletes that were best in class in college and maybe they could make it in the pros due to injury or something.

And I, and I always try to remind them like, in a certain way, you are a loaded gun. You just need your next target.

[01:05:57] Alexi Pappas: Wow. You just,

[01:05:59] Gabby: that’s all you can. And will it be the same? No, it’s not the same, but it’s great. And in a different way, but I think people think about high powered CEOs, you know, they leave their job, you know, it’s wheeling and dealing and power.

And then all of a sudden, six months they could walk in and half the people won’t know who they are. And it’s something they invested 20 years of their life to. Is that what happens? Absolutely. You know, and so I think I want to learn about the real world from you. You may never have to go into the real world.

No, no, I have a feeling you might be able to skirt all around it and do all that. I think it’s so good. So I have to ask you going to the Olympics, what that experience for you, uh, You know, with the Olympics coming up, people are always curious, how was that experience for you? Was, were you feeling a sense of celebration?

Were you feeling the weight of the world? Before? Yeah. Like when you, when you got there and you were getting ready.

[01:07:00] Alexi Pappas: I felt so much pressure actually, because the, the decision to run for Greece was a big one and part of it was just how much in the heritage of that country, the Olympics is and how much they care about it for their kind of emotional, like spirit of the country.

And I was the first athlete to compete. And they told me, they said, you need to break, like, you need to run really well, because you are the first athlete and you will set the tone for everyone for a country. So all eyes on me. For every sport, I was the first and I was like, all right, like, okay. And I’m like a gamer.

So I was like, I’ll do it. Like, I like showing up when I have to for people, but it was pressure. Like I was, and it was kind of fun. Cause I was like, all right, I’m here 12 days early. I got there early. I came straight from altitude. I was ready. I established a routine. I was like, this is my room. This is the path I take to the dining hall.

The dining halls, coffee is shitty. So I’m going to go to the bank because I heard they have an espresso puller. So I like, you create a little life and that is a really fun thing for me to be like, what’s my world, like to hack a new life and be like, what is my routine here? So I did that and I tried to see all the chaos.

As opportunity. So that’s important, right? You can’t sterilize the Olympics. It’s going to be crazy. And you have to see that as why it might go well, not why it’s going to be unsuccessful for you. Uh, and then I just tried to do the things I needed to do. And then embrace, again, all that chaos as romance, right?

[01:08:37] Gabby: Did you, yeah, that romance word, that one, I have to, I’m gonna have to borrow that word. Isn’t it kind of

[01:08:44] Alexi Pappas: fun? Yeah, my kids would laugh

[01:08:45] Gabby: if I was like, that’s romantic. Well, it is

[01:08:47] Alexi Pappas: kind of romantic. Okay, look, like, you made me this, like, creamer, turmeric thing. And, like, this, you know, It’s like, I used to put this stuff in my coffee every morning when I was training and I was like, this is why I’m going to do well and it’s like, Oh my God, how cathartic that like now I’m just drinking it here and I don’t like, I didn’t run a hundred miles this morning.

You know, it’s like,

[01:09:05] Gabby: yeah, it’s fun. Did you, uh, Oh my goodness. I, uh, I have to ask about, you know, people always curious about sort of being around all those other athletes when you go to the Olympics. I mean, you’d always been around athletes and obviously not like

[01:09:18] Alexi Pappas: that.

[01:09:18] Gabby: Yeah. What was, what was that like?

And was it, um, it’s almost like you said, everybody knows how hard it was to get there. So what was, how did you experience that, but not let it kind of get into what you needed to your job was?

[01:09:36] Alexi Pappas: Yeah, well, your job is simplified by the time you get there, right? You are doing less than you’ve ever done. You don’t have a car.

You’re like, so you have time to do what you need to do at the games. There’s not like a shortage of time. You have time to take a nice bath. You have time to feed yourself. You’re not cooking. It’s a 24 hour dining hall. And so there’s time to like soak it in and get your job done. Uh, I liked. Looking at everybody.

Cause first of all, in no place in the whole world, not even the UN, does everybody have the country on their back of their shirt and jacket and everyone wears their same uniform. You have to wear it the whole time. Yeah. You were the same clothes the whole time. I mean, people get a couple of sets, but then at the end you trade.

So like on the last day of the games, everyone is just in the, in the. Uh, village taking off their shirt and being like, I want that shirt, trade your shirt, trade your backpack and everyone’s just stripping and giving each other and taking, it’s awesome. You feel like you’re at some like world trade fair girl scout camp, you know, last day, it was so cool.

So, but to the question of how do you not let it get in your way is, you know, athletes are good at compartmentalizing, right? If you’re like, I’m going to go to the game room, And like play a game or just watch and drink a soda and just take it in. But then I’m gonna go back to my room and I’m going to nap.

Right. You do both. And I think athletes are pretty good about we’re, we’re extreme people, right? We’re on or we’re off. And so I think people can turn it on and they can turn it off. Um, and, but not everybody does, right? Some people don’t do so well at the games because it’s too much.

[01:11:12] Gabby: Yeah.

[01:11:13] Alexi Pappas: Um, they

[01:11:14] Gabby: don’t have the off.

So I think it’s too long and they have to be the, when it has time to come to be on, they’re already probably tired cause they’ve been on.

[01:11:23] Alexi Pappas: Right.

[01:11:24] Gabby: It’s too long. I have to say, I watched a track town, which I, how do you, the same year you were in the Olympics,

[01:11:32] Alexi Pappas: we premiered it.

[01:11:33] Gabby: Yeah. I mean, to me that was insane.

Yeah. So you were in, you were in a relationship already that during that time, because you both wrote this project together. Um, so Plum, that character, it’s funny, she had both the qualities. She was a sniper and I, she was a look to me a little bit. I don’t want to say not a shrinking violet, like, you know, Yours is more whimsical, hers felt a little more skittish, something of the character that you created.

But obviously, there was a lot, there was very cathartic when you’re in the nail salon with the, your mother character and you’re like, I, you know, I need you not to act like my mom. Like, there were so many things that I thought, I wondered if the process of making that film Besides being fun and creative and your poetic side, was it cathartic?

[01:12:25] Alexi Pappas: Yeah. You know, I, I wouldn’t have said that until today because sometimes, um, when people, sometimes when people ask me that about like a book or things like that, I’ll be like, you know what? I actually had to like go through therapy. You have to be smarter than the characters. You have to actually do your own healing before you make your art.

And I think that’s true. But now when I think about these films that I’ve been making. I think that they’re kind of like these little memoirs and they’re kind of these books that represent a Uh, a wrinkle in time that I was in at that time. So like with plum, she really was derivative of all these super type a athletes that I was running with in college, like these girls that were like really determined, including myself and right.

And there’s a deferred, like I did know people, you know, we went through the Sundance labs and the advisors were like, there’s no way she hasn’t like kissed a boy. And I was like, I can name three girls. To right now, who haven’t kissed a boy who are on my team. They, so I was like, wow, this girl does exist to me, but not to the world.

Um, and yet I wouldn’t be playing plumber writing plum today. And I’m like, Oh, I’m so glad I made it. Cause even though it’s not, none of my projects are perfect. Like they represent the height of my ability, time and intelligence at the time. They do capture something that. That was of the time for me.

[01:13:51] Gabby: Yeah, it’s, you can feel it.

You can feel it when you watch it and even the conversations, you know, the, you know, the boy who’s not, not sort of pressuring her but just even like, well can’t you take a day off? It’s like people don’t realize that maybe you can’t.

[01:14:07] Alexi Pappas: Yeah.

[01:14:08] Gabby: Like you got to go.

[01:14:09] Alexi Pappas: Yeah. Not for your sanity at least. Yeah. Because you have to believe you’re doing everything right.

[01:14:14] Gabby: What about that it hurts? I, I, I think if I think about myself going running and I think about you running, I’m like, Oh, she enjoys it. It’s like, it’s like you saw Kava in my driveway, the dog I took, we take him running. He loves it. Yeah. And when he’s done, he, he stops, but he looks like he’s having a good time.

Me, you know, every step is like, I’m running, I’m running, I’m running. And what people don’t realize is it isn’t that it’s still hurt. It’s still uncomfortable.

[01:14:43] Alexi Pappas: Yeah, it does hurt. I think running hurts for everybody, especially the first 10 minutes. I mean, everyone doesn’t really, like, it kind of is hard to start, right?

Like, what does

[01:14:52] Gabby: that feel like? Like, where does it hurt?

[01:14:54] Alexi Pappas: Uh, for me, I think it, I think for a lot of us, it feels like a labor to carry your body, right? Like it’s a labor to like lift your legs, especially if you’re not as fit as, You could be right. So like now when I run, like I’m in okay shape, but I’m not an Olympic shape and I’m not in terrible shape and it’s hard, uh, it’s hard.

Um, but I think, I guess now I don’t push to a place where it’s. Feels like training anymore. So there’s a certain feeling I want. I want to feel like I’m trying kind of hard, but I want to have a day ahead of me. So I kind of maybe go to a different. Um, but there’s a healthy feeling about doing something hard, especially before you start your day or at the end of the day or even in the middle of the day.

Uh, and that’s why being in a beautiful place really helps being with people, talking to them, being with your dog, like that’s where it feels like good pain.

[01:16:03] Gabby: Right.

[01:16:04] Alexi Pappas: Right. I mean, do you agree that like, that, you know, yeah, I mean, look, you’re doing it for the after, but I think there is an enjoyment in the during if you let yourself kind of walk when it sucks too.

Like I walk uphill sometimes. You do? Yeah.

[01:16:21] Gabby: I feel like you meet yourself. That’s what I like about it. I feel like it’s a constant peeling away of all of the whatever layers that I put on and that I just get to re meet myself and see how I’m doing, like, Oh, you’re feeling a little squeeze. Like, how are you, do you still have the ability to be like, Oh, that’s hard, but you don’t react to it.

Or, you know, all of those things where maybe everyday life doesn’t give you that opportunity and it’s honest. It’s not a. A weird dynamic in a relationship or something. It’s just really honest. It’s simple. It’s so simple. And I, I really love that. So what do you, and this is just more of a technical question when you are running, uh, first of all, what event is your favorite?

Is it, is it,

[01:17:08] Alexi Pappas: uh, I love, well, so I ran the 10, 000 in Rio. Now I love trail running. Love trail running and would compete in a trail race. And I like guiding for blind athletes in the marathon. So I love the marathon. I like running with people, you know, I ran with Wes. I like that. That’s how I like marathoning best with people.

[01:17:33] Gabby: And. What’s the breathing overall, like in a 10k, because I know it’s different on the last kick of the race, right? It’s probably what just in and out the mouth. Oh,

[01:17:43] Alexi Pappas: wow. But

[01:17:44] Gabby: do you have a breathing cadence? Do you notice what your breathing style is leading up to that?

[01:17:53] Alexi Pappas: No.

[01:17:54] Gabby: Because your faces are relaxed.

[01:17:56] Alexi Pappas: I mean, the 10k, so the 10k is a race of attrition.

So you’re essentially, you are. Trying to get on the rail and be right behind somebody and then Run within a range that you’ve planned, like your coaches, like, don’t go faster than 75 or something, and then you have to sense the person ahead of you and sense if they’re starting to fall off that a little bit, you have to go around them immediately.

Like, so you’re kind of like. A little meditative, but you’re very focused. You’re

[01:18:26] Gabby: tuning in on them.

[01:18:27] Alexi Pappas: Yeah.

[01:18:28] Gabby: So they’re breathing their posture little things. Yeah.

[01:18:31] Alexi Pappas: And I was really good at detecting that. Like I’m very good tactical racer. Like if someone was like, do this, I can execute it to the ability. That my body, like I can do it to the maximum until I hit my fitness limit.

Like I had no problem like getting around people, executing race plan, not soccer, but like soccer and other sports teach you get to the ball. There’s going to be other girls there get to the ball, you know, and don’t fall when they step on it, get, just get to the, get to the ball. So, but the breathing thing.

Look, I think it was basically my coach would tell me to stay composed and look like I have composure. So there was an element of like, behaving like I had more composure than I maybe did and that maybe dictated the breathing. But I’ve learned more about breathing since the Olympics. Yeah, of course.

[01:19:22] Gabby: We never get all the good stuff all when we’re in the peak of the moment.

This is a

[01:19:26] Alexi Pappas: breathing thing, actually.

[01:19:27] Gabby: Oh yeah.

[01:19:27] Alexi Pappas: That thing. So, so now I pay attention to it.

[01:19:31] Gabby: Have you implemented, are you trying to do like, More nose, nose on your trail run, since maybe it’s not as much sprinting. Have you, is that any part of it? Because

[01:19:40] Alexi Pappas: not yet,

[01:19:40] Gabby: not yet.

[01:19:41] Alexi Pappas: Like I I’m open to it, but I’ve never, you’d be a

[01:19:43] Gabby: fascinating person.

I’ve never done

[01:19:45] Alexi Pappas: anything with breathing, but I’m interested in it. It’s just never, I haven’t ever done anything with it. It’s

[01:19:51] Gabby: not so funny.

[01:19:52] Alexi Pappas: And I know that it’s a thing. Like I know that. Right? It’s a thing, right? It’s a thing.

[01:19:57] Gabby: Yeah.

[01:19:57] Alexi Pappas: I would love to learn. I know nothing about it. I know nothing about, I don’t know anything about like heart rate stuff.

I don’t know anything about, I don’t know anything about anything.

[01:20:05] Gabby: But I think this is really important. No, this is important because Laird always talks about, okay, you know, save your data. Tell me about your experience. And I think we live in a time that’s so hacky and here’s my heart rate variability and blah, blah, blah.

And sometimes it’s like, you know what, just go, you know, and obviously you were keeping time. I think what people don’t re. are not reminded of is, and I was reminded when I watched Tracktown is, you girls are lean and light, but you’re also pretty brutal. Like when it gets clogged, people are pushing and shoving.

[01:20:42] Alexi Pappas: Yes.

[01:20:42] Gabby: Yeah.

[01:20:43] Alexi Pappas: So you learn that the hard way though, usually.

[01:20:45] Gabby: How do you not get angry or get fired up? And like, because if I had some girl elbowing me because I was trying to pass her or whatever, I, I mean, obviously maybe I would realize that the, the, you know, the juice for the squeeze wouldn’t be worth it, that it would, if I got angry, it would take too much energy.

But I think initially

[01:21:04] Alexi Pappas: you’d

[01:21:05] Gabby: be like, what?

[01:21:05] Alexi Pappas: Okay. Well, so when I was in the European champs before the Olympics in Amsterdam, the Europeans are aggressive way more than Americans. And I didn’t, I never raced in a purely European race. Do you have any European teammates? Yeah, but I had never done. I, I had done like a Greek championship, but I didn’t, I, I was used to us racing, right?

Like for my upbringing, more Americans and Americans are a little more, um, polite on the track. I mean, like aggressive, but it’s more swift. It’s like they’ll pass you, but the Europeans will do like, I found people elbowing, like the stuff you’re talking about. So this girl got tripped and everybody, a bunch of girls went down.

I went down, I’m covered in blood. And then. And I was like, shit, like I was supposed to podium in this race. It’s a month before the couple of weeks before the Olympics. And so I got up, I finished the race. I was embarrassed because the Greeks, you know, there’s expectation on me. I was actually horrified.

And they were like, now we know you’re a real Greek because you get back up and you keep fighting and we’ve lost more, you know, we Greeks never give up. So it was like amazing. But I learned, okay, girls can trip and fall. And I was like, what am I going to do when this happens again? So I had a conversation with myself and I was like, if somebody is starting to stumble in front of me, I’m going to not trust that they’re going to stay up.

You know, soccer players can stay up. Runners are a little more dainty than that. And I was like, assume they might go down and do not go down, like step on somebody if you need to. So in the games, girls went down.

[01:22:36] Gabby: I

[01:22:36] Alexi Pappas: had to step on somebody. You have to go right over them. And. You, so I think it is aggressive and in terms of the anger you’re talking about, and you

[01:22:44] Gabby: have little spikes on don’t you?

[01:22:46] Alexi Pappas: Yeah, it’s you’re bleeding. Yeah, you learn how to get girls off your back. So I learned the European girls snap Like if someone’s too close you can snap and so in the games when girls got close I snapped cuz it’s like get off me or go around right? So there’s that works Yeah, because you’re basically saying like get off like go around or get off me.

Don’t ride my don’t ride me Yeah, right that so So I learned that and, you know, alter egos are really awesome. And like, sometimes when you’re raising, you’re like, whatever. I’m like, uh, like get off. Like that might not be my personality, but did

[01:23:19] Gabby: your alter ego have a name?

[01:23:20] Alexi Pappas: No, but I wish that I had named, I think I did have an alter ego.

Um, but I also knew. That I was like, I could take any of these girls. I was taller than some of the 10 gear owners. I was soccer player, like, like on an Olympic development team. So I was like, if anyone elbows me, like that’s bad news for them. So I think to have that, um, and that’s where like, I had like, I’m whimsical and all that stuff, but I’m like, don’t mess with me.

Like, I will fuck you up, you know, if I need to, and if it’s legal, like I’m not going to do something. When you may not start

[01:23:49] Gabby: it.

[01:23:49] Alexi Pappas: No, I don’t start it. I don’t want to touch any, I don’t want anything to do with them. I just want to like do my race.

[01:23:54] Gabby: Yeah.

[01:23:55] Alexi Pappas: You know, but if someone’s going to like mess around, it’s like, don’t be messy around me.

You know?

[01:23:59] Gabby: It’s a hard learning, learning curve. No, it is. It’s a hard learning curve because sometimes we don’t, you know, it’s like when in regular rate car racing and they say rubbing’s racing, right? Like people don’t realize like this is, this too is a part of the, of the game and, and, uh. And

[01:24:13] Alexi Pappas: get used to it.

Like, I think that’s the thing is people, Maybe it’s just that some of sport is just having those experiences and knowing they exist.

[01:24:22] Gabby: You

[01:24:23] Alexi Pappas: know, my friend Sam has this thing that she says where she thinks every life experience, I love her, is a token, my friend Sam Perry, and good and bad, they’re all tokens.

And she’s like, I just want to have a lot of tokens in my life. And so when you’ve been talking today about like, Different things, good things that happened to us, bad things going to Oregon as a really specific experience. These are all tokens. And I think that’s kind of a cool way to think about life too.

Cause then they’re, they’re all valuable. They’re just like experiences. Yeah. Um, so maybe that is another thing for people to get up in the morning and think about is like, you’re going to go get some tokens. You don’t know what they are.

[01:25:03] Gabby: You so. You premiere the film, you go to the Olympics the same year.

What feeling did both those situations, what part of you did they feed each of them? What was that like? Cause getting a film made is a big deal. People can watch it on prime and it’s on Apple TV, by the way, track town is. Um, what was, How did those satisfy you in a different, in which ways?

[01:25:31] Alexi Pappas: They were, I mean, the art, I always wanted them to stand on their own.

And

[01:25:36] Gabby: they do.

[01:25:36] Alexi Pappas: Um, thank you. And that was a thing that, when we talked about Nike, I remember someone was like, this, there was someone who was not very nice to me, who was older than me in the store. Sport who was like, join Nike and they will not support your artistic career. And I was like, great. I don’t need them to, like, I’m, I need them to support me as an Olympian at this time.

This was when I was 21. Right. And I wanted those to be their own thing. Now I do both and they seem more synergistic, but at that time I wanted the film. To have its own, like exist in a film, a cinematic universe. And I think it felt good to have it like on airlines. I don’t know why airlines feel really legit, but that was a nice moment.

And then it made me feel like no matter how the Olympics went, I was building something that I was really excited about that would be there for me eventually, and no matter what, and then to be at the games was, you know, it’s this It’s a really, it’s like a quintessential life experience that I’m very grateful to have had and to have been able to like lean into.

Um, we had a secret screening of track town. I or I met a security guard at the game lounge and he said there was a movie theater and they were in the village and I had a secret screening of the movie with athletes and like, no one really knows this, but like a bunch of athletes just came and we watched the movie.

Like, were you self conscious? Yeah. A little because like, I just wanted to do it for fun because we were all kind of like we had 30 days to just do whatever I was a little self conscious because I wanted to be an athlete then in that context, but it was also like kind of. an awesome little mischievous thing to do.

Um, so it was a good year. I mean, it was hard afterwards cause I trained the next day like a stupid, like a dum dum. You did? Yeah. I didn’t, I, cause I thought that this momentum was really important to not lose. So I trained, I didn’t even take a day off. I just kept training. And then tried to figure out what was next, dove into sponsored negotiations, and that’s what, the depression came on because I didn’t pause.

Was it needing

[01:27:55] Gabby: to physically, mentally, and emotionally recover?

[01:27:58] Alexi Pappas: What I really needed?

[01:28:01] Gabby: Yeah, because sometimes, you know, I, I, I, uh, I see, I always joke that everyone’s like, uh, Oh, my mother, she’s crazy. You know, you ever talk to enough people and it’s like, my mom, she’s crazy, right? And no, and I started thinking

[01:28:16] Alexi Pappas: maybe

[01:28:17] Gabby: women get a lot of them when they talk about postpartum and stuff, whatever, they do go crazy.

But everyone, nobody knows. And it’s almost like she doesn’t get back on the line.

[01:28:27] Alexi Pappas: Oh my God. And they just

[01:28:28] Gabby: kind of stay, is it their, their chemistry, their hormones? Oh my God, tell me more. No, I just, I’ve thought about this a lot. Cause I’m like, if you talk to so many people, they talk about how crazy their moms are.

What

[01:28:38] Alexi Pappas: do they think? What are they, what are they referencing though? Like, do they mean like the way that they treat them, the way that they handle their life? Like, what

[01:28:45] Gabby: are they maybe a combination or a myriad of things? Like, this is one thing I’m very interested in cause I’ve tried to stay healthy. So my kids might say a lot of things about me.

I don’t know that they will call me crazy, but my point is if it’s also opened up a pocket in me of like empathy

[01:29:00] Alexi Pappas: that

[01:29:00] Gabby: maybe when women give birth once. Or maybe multiple times they, their chemistry gets off and they don’t ever get back. And then if God forbid, yeah, well, yes, um, but see, it’s just better just to put it on the table.

And then God forbid, then they get thrown into like perimenopause and menopause. Now then their chemistry really goes bonkers and people don’t realize that’s such a real thing because we are. We’re, we’re hormones, we’re chemistry, we’re a lot of things and I, and I believe that if we can’t get that straight, the spirit doesn’t get to get housed properly if the chemistry is off.

No matter how much we try and how much, you know, vitamin D we take, whatever. If like the certain things aren’t in a homeostasis, it’s a, it’s tricky. So the amount of output. to be in the Olympics in an event like what you’re doing, you’re depleted.

[01:29:52] Alexi Pappas: Completely. No, you’re 100 percent right. So

[01:29:54] Gabby: I wonder, and I know maybe in your mind you could have been like, oh, it’s in my family, it’s in my genetics, but that also maybe you just were.

[01:30:04] Alexi Pappas: Everybody goes through

[01:30:05] Gabby: this. Depleted. Completely. And they think I’m depressed, I’m having a mental, it’s like, yes, and.

[01:30:11] Alexi Pappas: Yes. And everybody has this dip and everybody has these surges of like, we’ve been holding on. It’s why everyone gets sick after film festival. Like, I mean, you know what I mean? People get, people go down after these peaks, no matter what they are.

And athletic ones are particularly pronounced because it’s a physical pursuit, you know, above, above all those other pursuits. Um, but

[01:30:32] Gabby: it also takes a lot of emotional fortitude to be okay, suppress fear and have expectation and want to win. And I’m intimidated by her, but I’m not going to let myself and all this stuff.

[01:30:45] Alexi Pappas: Yeah.

[01:30:46] Gabby: So you think, Oh, I’m going to just keep going. Were you thinking, I’m going to keep momentum because that I’m going for 20.

[01:30:51] Alexi Pappas: I thought that I needed to keep momentum because I thought that. It was almost like, I felt like I worked so hard to get to here, don’t lose a single step. So I didn’t realize, I was young, you know, and I didn’t know anything about mental health.

It was a well kept secret at that time in the Olympic community. Like now everyone’s like, yeah, mental health, it’s like hip to talk about it. But it was completely not okay to talk about it then. Like nobody, it was like really not okay.

[01:31:20] Gabby: Okay. I have a question. This is like a, I want to learn question for real.

This isn’t, I have a question.

[01:31:26] Alexi Pappas: You have a lot of, I want to learn questions.

[01:31:28] Gabby: Because I, I’m a lot older than you. I’m like more than 20 years older than you. So my generation was, you know, you kind of had to suck it up. That’s what we were taught. And then people are just privately alcoholics or whatever, you know, whatever they, whatever they’re using to medicate.

Right. Do, is there a fine line? Yeah. I feel like I’ve asked this question a lot. I think that pursuit. Okay. Is hard.

[01:31:53] Alexi Pappas: Mm hmm.

[01:31:54] Gabby: And it can kick your ass. Mm hmm. And that’s part of it. So, where do you find the, the balance, um, and you wrote a book called Bravey, which is incredible, of, I don’t want to say succumbing, opening up the dialogue about, hey, considering mental health.

[01:32:11] Alexi Pappas: Mm

[01:32:11] Gabby: hmm. And yes, this is hard.

[01:32:13] Alexi Pappas: Oh, yeah.

[01:32:14] Gabby: Metal up.

[01:32:15] Alexi Pappas: Yes. Okay, good.

[01:32:16] Gabby: Where, where, where’s, do we know the line? I feel like you’d be a really good person to talk about this.

[01:32:23] Alexi Pappas: Yeah, that’s a great question. So, um, I think probably, If we get more specific, it’s helpful. So like

[01:32:41] Gabby: on an, so in pursuit, I don’t mean like, uh, I can’t get out of bed, but here, here’s how I look at it sometimes is people.

Um, and I always think they, the chicken and egg, like, can’t, they can’t get there because they’re not healthy enough and they can’t make healthier choices because they’re depressed. So it’s that weird locked in. Okay. Okay. Okay. So that’s one. But if, when people are in pursuit of something hard, like a sport, it’s, I believe at that time it’s like, no, we’re going to have to figure out the tools that you’re going to need to deal with, yes, this is hard.

The training’s hard, the competing’s hard, the pressure. It’s like. It’s like.

[01:33:24] Alexi Pappas: Well, what about health as a prerequisite to chasing that dream, right? So if health is the prerequisite to anything physical, mental, any kind of pursuit, if that’s not there, like if that’s a, we’re talking about like how to get your basics in line and your basics could be.

I think your basics include like, can you, uh, support yourself, right? Like, cause if you don’t have like health insurance or food and you know, a house, like things like, like a place to live, good people around you, like that pursuit is going to be limiting. Right. So there’s your basics, but your basic is also your health.

So like, perhaps it’s like. If someone is trying to pursue this thing and we’re trying to have them pursue it with integrity, because you’re talking about integrity, right? That’s the word, right? Because you’re basically saying like, when do we know when to like be kind to ourselves and all this stuff? So you have to have your basics and how to tell if you have the health piece, the mental health, the physical piece is a little more maybe obvious, pain and whatnot, but the mental piece might be.

Like there are, um, I mean, there’s some physical cues to your nervous system that I’ve learned that can tell you if your nervous system is okay or not. Right. There’s a lot of physical cues, but there’s also like certain thoughts that like are obviously you’re not well. Like if you think, you know, the future, like there’s things like if you think I’m never going to be happy, like there’s thoughts that are unwell because they’re untrue.

And if you think you know them, the future, you’re, you’re ill or you’re wrong.

[01:34:58] Gabby: So when you, when you went down after the Olympics, what in what style did it show up for you?

[01:35:06] Alexi Pappas: I stopped sleeping. So I was sleeping one hour a night and then I was running like 120 miles a week at 8, 000 feet with like a national record holder.

Like I was training at full capacity with one hour sleep. I thought I knew the future. I thought I knew that my whole life was ruined. I thought I knew nothing would get better and I was certain, I was like, I’m certain I’ll never be happier than I’ve ever been. That the

[01:35:27] Gabby: best moment was already past you.

Yeah, certain.

[01:35:29] Alexi Pappas: And, and I would like tell my dad and he was like, I don’t think that’s true. And I was like, no, I know. I’ve like, and I, and I was certain that I messed everything up like this certainty. A lot of mentally unwell people have a certainty about things that they don’t, they can’t know. Um, you feel unhelpable, right?

That’s the worst feeling in the world to feel like you are unhelpable. Um, and you know, there’s obviously like suicidal thoughts are an obviously unwell thought. Especially, I mean, no sleep

[01:35:59] Gabby: alone will get you there. Yeah.

[01:36:00] Alexi Pappas: So there’s all these things, right? And

[01:36:02] Gabby: you’re in a relationship though. Yeah.

[01:36:04] Alexi Pappas: Yeah. And my partner was not.

Nice to me during this time and it was really hard because I felt so guilty and unsupported and it was really my dad and my doctor that I eventually found that were the ones that saved my life. Even my coach was like, and this was not the same Olympic coach. I had moved and he was like, uh, like it was like, okay, maybe in your time, the mentally, you said that there was a way people dealt with it.

They drank in private, blah, blah, blah. In my prime time.

[01:36:33] Gabby: Yeah.

[01:36:33] Alexi Pappas: It was like, You are weird if you were depressed. You are a weirdo. So like I was like, I don’t know. I don’t feel great. Like, and it was like, oh, it was like you had like, it was like you were weird. And so I left, you know, I had to leave Mammoth and go back to Oregon to get help, but I felt weird.

It wasn’t, it was like, I don’t know. I don’t know how to describe it. I was like it weird. How did your

[01:36:57] Gabby: doctor get your attention?

[01:37:01] Alexi Pappas: Uh, well, my dad made me go to the doctor. Which is good and I saw I met two because you shouldn’t meet more than one and I met this one woman and I just was pretty honest about what I was like feeling and seeing and hearing and things and She was like, wow, you are really suicidal We need to get you on all this medicine and we need to sedate you because you’re gonna kill yourself tomorrow Like she was like so honest And I was like, whoa, I didn’t know I was like that sick.

And she was like, and you need to find a therapist. Cause I’m only a psychiatrist. You’ll have to find a doctor. And I was like, ah, like, this is way too much for me. And she looked, was too, like, she was like a woman and I was intimidated by women to begin with, and she was like, Made me feel like I was like a problem.

So I was like, I don’t vibe with this lady. And then I met Dr. Arpaia and he was like the kind that were those, like, before it was cool, he wore those shirts from like the gas stations with like animals, like wolves on the, like, he was very kind and like, and just like kind, kind. And when I told him my symptoms, he was like, listen, um, when you were little, you used to fall down and like get hurt and scratch your knee and whatever.

And you get injured and then you would eventually heal. And he’s like, you kind of fell down here and, but you have a scratch on your brain. So you are injured, but on your brain. And I was like, Oh, that’s brilliant. Cause I understand injuries and I understand the body. And he was like, yeah, you can heal, but you’re injured.

And he, you know, gave me principles, like your actions change first, then your thoughts, then your feelings in that order only, and So we’re going to focus on your actions and like your feelings are going to feel bad for a long time, but we’re going to focus on your actions. So he just like gave me a way to see it.

That made perfect sense to me.

[01:38:49] Gabby: Well, back to a system for you. Yeah. So is it actions like you’re going to get to sleep or were you going to eat differently? Were you going to, Thought came in, you were going to have a different practice on dealing with it. Like what were some of the things that were really especially helpful?

[01:39:05] Alexi Pappas: Well, not everything was helpful. So we tried stuff, right? So he was like, I want you to try to go on a walk in the woods. We did cognitive behavioral therapy three or four times a week. Uh, he had me write in a notebook, uh, like 300 times, like, Every day in every way, I’m getting stronger and stronger, like over and over and over again.

So I had to like write these things out because I had terrible thoughts. So he was probably trying to have me write things, you know, I don’t know what.

[01:39:34] Gabby: Right. In lieu of the terrible thoughts.

[01:39:36] Alexi Pappas: Yeah. You know, food, it was, it was just like a bunch of actions. And I think It’s almost like when you make a soup where it’s like, was this one ingredient, the thing it’s like, I don’t know, but the soup tastes good.

And eventually, um, it worked. Some stuff didn’t work. Like meditation wasn’t for me at that time, easy or doable or, or helpful, but other people, maybe that helps. Yeah. Um, but your question about when to get people to push, by the way, Like if you have your basics, cause I think it’s an important one. Like the thing that people need to do is they need to ask themselves to try their best.

They don’t need to be the best. And that’s what you, the standard you need to hold yourself to. And that honors that there’s going to be hard days, right? Cause you still try your best, but you give 90 percent of shit that day. Um, so I think that is kind of that integrity line. And. Not, not seeing, basically seeing losses as normal, like it’s just, it’s just, I feel for

[01:40:41] Gabby: the group that it’s, and I don’t ask it for me, it’s more of, they don’t, if you’re going to go out into the world and do anything, anything at all, parts of it are going to be hard.

So how do we, how do we, support them in a really loving full way, not just be like, Oh, it’s okay. You’re, you have, you know, you’re depressed, you’re anxious, you’re this. It’s like, first of all, I also believe labeling people, very few people are depressed. They feel depressed, they feel anxious, but then once the minute you label them, now they go, Oh, well, I am.

It’s like a couch that they’ll sit in or something. Yeah. Instead of. You’ve had injuries. I have it with my knees and I’ll be like, yeah, I don’t have good knees and when I say that I go, Oh, I’ve moved in the injury. I’ve named the injury and now that is a part of my whole story about myself and I sometimes think people just need different tools, different skills and sometimes to kick in the ass and be like, Hey, This is a thing that will, you’ll experience, but you can, you can get through this and you can get tools because it’s also human.

[01:41:52] Alexi Pappas: Yeah.

[01:41:53] Gabby: Like we’re not, I mean, even the notion of like feeling happy. It’s like, come on. I mean, it’s, what did, uh, uh, Arthur C. Brooks say? It’s, it’s sort of like an indication, a direction. It’s not like a place.

[01:42:06] Alexi Pappas: You were saying

[01:42:07] Gabby: about Chase, going towards your values. These aren’t like constants. These are like arrows going, Hey, let’s head this way.

So I just, I want to make sure that we talk about it because I think you’re a great balance between the two of somebody who’s done a lot of hard things and talked about, um, going through hard emotional times and mental times. So did Bravey come out of this experience writing this book? I mean, writing the book,

[01:42:37] Alexi Pappas: I didn’t put any of the depression stuff in my book proposal cause I thought it would preclude me from a deal.

Cause it was that time where I was like, Oh, they’re going to think I’m weird. So they won’t want to do a curve. Yeah. But then I wrote the chapter and they’re like, Oh, this is the book. So I wrote it anyway, but I think the book, um, is a good, It’s a good, it was a good, like capturing of that journey of like lost mom to suicide was left with a series of unanswered questions and responsibilities that felt too big for my, my age to took them on in the best way I could.

Didn’t know everything and fell down with some of the deficit that, but everyone falls down. Right. And then rebuilt in with my own rules, right. Like within a more. Active way of like, I don’t know. I, I think just trying to give people, um, like, because I’ve had extreme experiences, this is what I see myself in the world.

I’ve had extreme experiences. Like I just have, I’ve seen unseeable things like it is. Current, it is scary. Some, some of the things I saw really scary and then seen some vibrant, beautiful things. And so it’s like, okay, I fall somewhere in between that spectrum and everybody falls, there are people outside of that, but there are fewer people outside of it than there are inside of it.

So if I can write to kind of like. Nurture and cultivate the people within those, like the people who can trust that I have something to say that they trust, which is not everybody, but whoever, and if I can help them to, to, to see things differently, words are my passion, right? So they can see it differently.

Then they can feel helpable and then they can live their own awesome life, whatever that is.

[01:44:25] Gabby: Yeah. And you said it, your, your rules. I think people don’t realize, I have a friend who said, you know, we’re all perfectly wounded.

[01:44:32] Alexi Pappas: Oh, that’s so sweet. And then it’s

[01:44:34] Gabby: almost like, okay, this is your kit. Now you’re going to start the work, whatever the work is, and then you’ll make your own rules.

And, and I think You’re a really good example of somebody who had a lot of different things and Not only has excelled, but is willing to say all along the way You have to keep refiguring it out

[01:45:00] Alexi Pappas: Yeah, and not be so like ashamed of being like not right Like what are we afraid of getting in trouble? Like what is like the real fear?

Like, I guess people fear failure probably, but like

[01:45:15] Gabby: rejection,

[01:45:16] Alexi Pappas: reject, but like, but I guess I’m like, but why do you feel, what’s the worst part about rejection? Is it that you won’t survive in the world or like, is it that it will feel bad? Like what is, What are people really afraid of with rejection? Well, it’s

[01:45:32] Gabby: biological, right?

[01:45:33] Alexi Pappas: It’s like that

[01:45:34] Gabby: it doesn’t feel good, right? It’s no, if the tribe, so the right, if the biological impulse, once we can realize that we don’t live like this anymore, but if the tribe was like, Oh no, you’re out, you’re not going to survive alone.

[01:45:46] Alexi Pappas: Okay. But we don’t live in the tribe. So it’s like, if you do get rejected and you can sit and be like, like in anything that we’re afraid of, can’t we just be like, okay, what’s the worst case of this?

Okay. Get rejected. Is, can I live with that worst case, then you can go, isn’t that kind of about, like when you signed contracts, like with Nike, didn’t you have to consider the worst case scenario of the contract and be okay with it before you signed it? A hundred

[01:46:12] Gabby: percent.

[01:46:12] Alexi Pappas: So that’s something athletes need to do, first of all, because so many people sign them and they’re like expecting the best and it’s like, well, you better, you, you better sign for the worst just in case.

Just in case. Yeah. And so if we can go into these agreements with ourselves of the dreams we’re chasing and hope for the best, but accept the worst is not death, then maybe our fear will be calmed because we can, we know we can live with the worst. We can survive it. Yeah. So then you can be like, well then I’ll throw myself full on in.

Cause if it doesn’t happen, I’m going to be okay.

[01:46:44] Gabby: Yeah.

[01:46:44] Alexi Pappas: I think, and it’s all this order of operation stuff, right? It’s like, people are just thinking out of order. They’re just thinking out of order. They’re not giving space and being like, what does this really mean? When I grounded in reality, nothing should be like these clouds that we’re trying to grab with tweezers.

We need to like ground things and be like, what’s really going on. And then I think things are way less.

[01:47:08] Gabby: I think what’s fascinating is you can say this better than anyone. Because if I say, Hey, everybody, we need to get grounded. They’re like, Oh, okay. I mean, my birth sign is a Capricorn.

[01:47:17] Alexi Pappas: Wait, why? Because I am.

[01:47:18] Gabby: appear to be like, so linear. I think it is so powerful because you also have this inner power. air about you that, I mean, I’ve, you know, that you might even lift off and fly around. And then you’re like, Oh, wait, we have to, you know, ground it. I think it is the perfect combination for people to go, Oh, she’s even, you know, that balance of, of doing both.

And I think that’s why, you know, whether it’s your books or your films, I think that’s why people really are drawn to you because it’s one thing when people are like, you should get organized. It’s like. Okay. Coming from you, you know, but coming from you where you’re like, you’re just like, Hey, but we have to still, you know, figure it out and get systematized.

It’s like, Oh, okay. Injuries. How do you, where do you go? Everybody’s different, right? Like I’m married to somebody who’s been injured a lot and he can deal with it. He knows how to get better. He’s been hurt enough times. He’s gotten better enough times. He just does. If you say do eight reps, he’ll do 16.

He’s more compliant. He knows he always says everything is a system and a process. So he will process his way through to, to recovery for you. And somebody who probably, especially when you were running, had a lot of energy. What did you do? What helped you to get through those times?

[01:48:47] Alexi Pappas: So I never got injured before the Olympics.

I had no injuries. I maybe, I think I broke a toe once, but I like stubbed my toe on the bed frame or something. No, they left a weight out. And that was a lesson. And I said, I didn’t have enough time to clean my room. But then when you break your toe on the way you suddenly have time to clean your room and you have time to deal with Your toe.

You had a number on

[01:49:08] Gabby: your room?

[01:49:09] Alexi Pappas: Yeah, like I just, I lived in like a studio, so it was like everything was everywhere and I had these little dumbbells that I would like do my little running.

[01:49:15] Gabby: Yeah, your arm weights.

[01:49:18] Alexi Pappas: But, so I didn’t have any injuries till after and I tore my hamstring during the depression because I was running that 120 miles a week, 8, 000 feet of altitude.

Not sleeping. One hour of sleep. Yeah, so I tore my, I tore my hamstring. And, um, I had never had an injury, so I didn’t really understand what it felt like to be injured. And my coaches, so I had to take time off because I couldn’t run, it hurt, but also I was unwell. But when I got well mentally, my leg was like, okay, not great.

I had had some like PRP, I’d had, uh, what’s the, cortisone, which you should never do on, like, don’t do it. Only if you’re

[01:49:54] Gabby: in the NFL and you got to get back out there. It was

[01:49:56] Alexi Pappas: so dumb. Did the dumbest stuff. It And then, but I could run and my coaches, this is shame on coaches and physios for not telling people they’re injured when they are.

So I could run. Would you have heard

[01:50:08] Gabby: it?

[01:50:10] Alexi Pappas: Yes. Oh, I’m a hundred percent. I can live in reality. I can take feedback. I can get criticism. I’m all good. It might hurt for a second, but it’s like, no, no, no. I would rather live in the truth. But they were like, well, because you can run 20 miles, you must not be injured.

And so they said I was weak in the butt. And so for four years, I was training with a torn hamstring and it was probably getting worse and worse and worse. And I didn’t feel right. And I ran my first marathon and I was like, like, didn’t feel good. I had like, I was like, I feel like I have one leg and they’re like, your butt’s just weak.

There’s no way you’re injured. If you can run. 20 miles, or you could do that workout. The point my, my times were, were too slow for what I had run on the track, but they weren’t slow. So it was this dangerous middle ground. Finally, I met a physio in Boulder. I was training for Tokyo for a qualifying race.

And this random physio didn’t know who I was. Didn’t know Olympian, didn’t know anything. And he was like, I think you might be injured. Cause I was, by then I said, I have a weird hamstring. And if anyone says they have a weird, anything, they’re injured. It’s nothing’s weird. You’re injured. Okay. I’m sorry.

And he was like, would you get an MRI? And I was like, yes, got an MRI. And he was like, Oh my God, your hamstring is more torn than Usain Bolt when he medically retired. And I was like, what? And he’s like, I don’t know how you’re walking. And so I stopped. Cause like when, if someone’s like injured, I stopped and I did the research and it was very clear I needed a reconstruction because I had run through.

This for four years. So I had, um, scar tissue, so I had a reconstruction surgery. I released my book during that time. It was COVID. So I did all virtually. I didn’t tell anyone cause it was kind of, it was kind of like scary to say you had a surgery and then I recovered it. And I’m completely healthy now and I have a different approach to injury now, um, which is that when I’m in pain, I stop and I pivot the goal from fitness to health immediately.

And I don’t cross train through anything. And I just, I do what I need to do. If it’s a nerve thing, you need to wait, you need to sleep, you need to eat turmeric, you need to whatever you need to do, but I don’t run through. Injury. Cause it’s quicker and I don’t cross train. I’m not about it. I’d rather get out of shape in proportion with my frame health.

Right. And then I’ll find my way back into fitness at a rate that makes sense. Cause I’m not like, my heart is not a Ferrari and then my frame, like a. you know, an older car. Yeah.

[01:52:33] Gabby: Volkswagen. Yeah. I think that’s really wise.

[01:52:37] Alexi Pappas: People don’t pivot quick enough, right? Yeah. And I think,

[01:52:42] Gabby: I think people don’t realize that for most of us, most people, it should be about health, 100 percent feeling good.

And, uh, I train really hard so that I’m healthy and I like the idea of performance, but I think your point is Is really important because I think sometimes people, um, they’re not connected to how everything feeds everything and just, you know, taking care of first principles. I mean, let’s face it. I mean, people like, you know, oh, my back.

It’s like, how long have you had that? Six years. It’s like, okay, well, do you want to get involved with maybe figuring that out?

[01:53:21] Alexi Pappas: It, it’s a, it’s a basic. Yeah, it is a basic.

[01:53:24] Gabby: You were talking about the basics. What have you learned about relationships or marriage and maybe not being in a marriage? What lessons have you taken with you to, to propel you into the future?

[01:53:42] Alexi Pappas: Oh man, I’ve learned a lot. Um, well, I’ve learned that we can always be proud of our own commitment. Like, and that is something to really, like, if you committed to something, a person, a goal, no matter what happens or what is reciprocated or not. The fact that you were decided to commit is something to be really proud of.

And like, it’s a, when I think about the commitment I made to someone who did not commit to me in that honorable way, I’m like, I’m devastated, but then I’m also like, man, but I did, like, I did my, So I can be proud of myself. I think I learned that love is a verb. It’s not just a feeling. And I didn’t grow up around like a relationship because my dad was a single dad and he didn’t really introduce us to girlfriends unless it was like, you know, I met two over the course of like 20 years or whatever.

Does he have anyone now? He’s married. Yeah, he’s married. He married like a couple of years ago. So not in my

[01:54:42] Gabby: kind of

[01:54:42] Alexi Pappas: childhood lifetime. That’s good

[01:54:44] Gabby: though. It’s nice.

[01:54:45] Alexi Pappas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and.

[01:54:49] Gabby: And then what about the decision when you think, Oh, because especially somebody who’s a winner. Right? I’m putting that winner.

I’ll make it work.

[01:54:57] Alexi Pappas: Dude, it’s the hardest thing. Because

[01:54:59] Gabby: I always say this to people. You might have, you might be with somebody for three years, 10 years, whatever it is, it could be a success and it can end like whatever you needed to learn, you had the chance if you did to love each other. And then, so it isn’t about, it’s a failure.

I think staying together and not being happy is, is the failure.

[01:55:20] Alexi Pappas: Mm hmm.

[01:55:20] Gabby: So what did you So when you had to make the decision as somebody who probably knows how to really focus in, how did you go, Oh, okay, this isn’t going to go any further.

[01:55:34] Alexi Pappas: It was really hard, um, for me to be honest, my body started to hurt in like this insane way.

Like I couldn’t even walk and it was like months and months and I was seeing every physio and then I had a pelvic floor PT. Out here, who’s amazing. I really trust her. She was like, this doesn’t seem like athletic related. It’s something like going on at home. And it was very obvious. I knew, but I hadn’t talked to anybody about it.

Not even my best friend. And then I called my doctor who had helped me. Through the mental health stuff and told him that there had been, you know, a lot of bad things happening. And he was like, you have got to create space because your body will never feel good if it’s not at ease. And I love that he used the word ease.

Not like trauma or stress because those are words we can kind of make decisions about. But ease, it’s like you could be uneasy when your best friend’s driving your car because they’re ripping through, you know, Stop signs or whatever, you know, it’s just a feeling.

[01:56:33] Gabby: Nobody

[01:56:33] Alexi Pappas: can tell you,

[01:56:34] Gabby: I have a good friend who say this.

Yeah, he told me this trick. You can say to somebody, oh, I’m not comfortable with that. He goes, because they can’t say to you, well, you can’t be uncomfortable.

[01:56:44] Alexi Pappas: Right. So you can say, hey, I don’t

[01:56:46] Gabby: feel at ease. It’s so smart.

[01:56:48] Alexi Pappas: Yeah. But even then, So then I healed like immediately, which was telling, right. Cause it had been months and I didn’t have any medical intervention, but it still took time because of that athletic mindset of like giving up.

And also the perplexing feeling of like, I committed to something and it wasn’t an equitable, um, exchange and being confused about it and about like, what is love? Like, I don’t get it. I still, I think I’m figuring it out, but I think, It’s very, it’s, I’m still figuring out, I mean, I know what it is, but I think it was very confusing, you know, to, to understand.

And then really, to be honest, when we’re athletes, we become highly specialized in our tasks and we, we defer Development in certain ways. And so one of the things was that I had become like pretty codependent in a way that kept me in it in an unhealthy time. So I had to learn skills and realize like where I was having deficit so that I could make strong decisions, not from a place of need, but from a place of, you know, just wanting to be with someone.

Right. And so my, I think, um, It was really helpful because it’s hard to say like, don’t think about that or forget this or blah, blah. It’s hard to basically take, tell yourself to shift your attention without focusing on something. And so before I even formally like really, really legally separated, I just shifted my attention to becoming more independent.

And I was in, I was at that time dating in a really happy. New situation, but, but independent of that had goals to become my own first resource for everything, learning how to do my own taxes, learning how to ask myself how my day was getting myself the smoothie I wanted, you know, it’s like things that I’m embarrassed to say that like I outsourced and so that makes it hard to make healthy decisions.

So what I’m saying is this, the decision becomes easier, but what’s best for you when you don’t feel. In desperate for something that you might be able to give to yourself.

[01:59:09] Gabby: Yeah. And it’s interesting because your work was even intertwined with in your relationship. So that is even tricky. Yeah. So then to have the independence or the confidence to say, I can still pursue this thing that I love.

Oh, scary. Separate from this situation. So I, I, I really appreciate that. And I think it’s interesting. Um, uh, you know, I, I’ve been in a relationship for almost 29 years and it is so interesting to stay completely have a space. You, your thoughts, your feelings, your voice, your opinions, and because everyone around you and unintentionally will, will, you know, they’ll sort of infringe upon, right, especially when you asked, you know, you have children, whatever.

And all of a sudden, it all sort of bleeds together. So I do think it’s, It’s, it’s a really good reminder of also, this is me, you know, I can, I can, I can certainly take care of things if I want to and need to. My life is enhanced by being in this partnership, um, but if, you know, something were to happen, it’s like, you know, the house would still stand.

And I always try to teach my daughters that, that, that idea of, of coming to the relationship to make their life better, but be in the relationship because you want to.

[02:00:33] Alexi Pappas: Yeah, not a need. And that’s, and really like, there’s a fun quest to being your own first resource. Cause then you basically are like any impulse you have, like any need you’re like, ask yourself first.

Like if someone, cause I literally asked my doctor, the one I’m working with now, and I was like, how do I do it? How do I become? She was like, Just like slow down and, and like, listen to the needs you have, and then realize when you’re outsourcing or not feeling incapable and just try to do it yourself.

And that sounds like so basic, but, and maybe that’s one of the joys of this like athletic career continuing and evolving is like, you know, you’re capable, but you know, that you get, you know, that you. Did not develop in certain ways when you were developing in others. Cause we’re just one human. And then to be like, Oh, what a joyful adventure I get to have after this in learning how to own a house or whatever it is that you’re scared of doing, you know, like calling a, someone to, you know, Trim your, your brush so we don’t have fires in the valley.

You know what I mean? It’s like it’s such a But that’s also when

[02:01:37] Gabby: you have if you’re gonna fix any of your appliances have one of your male friends come over To deal with the guy. Um, i’m joking. Oh my

[02:01:44] Alexi Pappas: god. Do you mean because they treat you differently? Yes. Wait, can I tell you? This guy came to change my water filter and it was like Yeah, they do.

There is a thing. Yeah. No, you, but he comes already. And I was like, I was like, well, I’m an athlete. So I need some like really good water. And he’s like, what kind of athlete? He’s like, he’s like, you’re a skateboarder. Right. And I was like, I was like, Oh, I’m, I was like, no, I’m not a skateboarder. And he’s like, well, what are you then?

He’s like, you’re kind of. And I was like, I’m a runner. He was like, what? He’s like, you’re not skinny enough to be a runner. Um, and he was like, he’s like, you’re kind of curvy and blah, blah. And I was like, I’m not that curvy, but also like, it was so out of pocket, but he was nice. Did you want

[02:02:21] Gabby: to raise him?

Were you at that point? Like, okay, let’s

[02:02:24] Alexi Pappas: just go. Just fix the filter and get out of here. And I was like, I don’t know what you’re.

[02:02:27] Gabby: Okay. Now I’m going to add something that maybe the therapist may or may not agree with. This’ll just be a pattern that I’ve recognized.

[02:02:34] Alexi Pappas: Okay.

[02:02:34] Gabby: In being in a relationship, and I’m with a very competent person.

Justin can attest to this. I

[02:02:41] Alexi Pappas: want your wisdom, by the

[02:02:42] Gabby: way. No, the other interesting thing, and this would be like being on a team with somebody who’s better at something than you are. I am very quick at this point to do what I do really naturally and really well and defer to Laird. very quickly into the things that he can just do without any effort.

So then there’s another part of the story of be your own first resource to being in partnerships where it’s like, yeah, you like, I got it. Oh, you’re got it.

[02:03:18] Alexi Pappas: That’s good. Yes, it is.

[02:03:20] Gabby: So I don’t I want to say also, if you come across somebody, and that there’s a flow of that naturally, don’t be afraid of that.

[02:03:29] Alexi Pappas: Yeah. That sounds nice.

[02:03:30] Gabby: Yeah. No. So I just want to add. That’s nice. Continue that part of the story because there’s things like. You don’t have to do it all. And by the way, I don’t want to like, you know, I don’t, you know, I, I, there are certain things Laird does very well and I don’t really have an interest.

Now if I had to like figure it out, I could either get someone to solve it. Or whatever. But I just want to put that in your ear because then there’s sort of an enhancement

[02:03:56] Alexi Pappas: where

[02:03:57] Gabby: you can ride both of those skill sets and make your lives also easier.

[02:04:02] Alexi Pappas: That sounds great. That sounds like the, the, the equitable thing to do too, you know, where you’re inefficient and loving.

Efficient. Yes. Efficiency. The word I like. We love efficiency. Okay.

[02:04:13] Gabby: Okay. So you have your, your marathon coming up named after you and you’re going to be going to. And running for the people, right? A marathon for the Olympics. Uh, does that hurt? Like, how do you feel when you’re getting ready to do a marathon?

[02:04:32] Alexi Pappas: I feel fine now because I’m not, it’s always like a pace that I can handle.

[02:04:36] Gabby: Okay.

[02:04:37] Alexi Pappas: Um, I would say Boston and LA marathon this year were a little bit challenging for me because I froze my eggs in December and I had to take five months out of exercise because, look, I don’t want to tell people that because nobody else had my experience, but I had like, Uh, my, my, like, I had really bad, uh, nerve pain, so I didn’t run it all except for those marathons.

And so that was nerve wracking cause I knew I was going to feel a little bit of pain. I knew I was out of shape, but this stuff I feel very happy with. And, um, it’s nice to go a little slower cause you get to actually enjoy the view.

[02:05:15] Gabby: Yeah. Do you, if somebody was listening to this and they thought, I used to run a little or I’d like to take up running and let’s say they’re not deconditioned, let’s say they exercise, but they don’t run per se.

What would be the smartest first way to, to incrementally, you know,

[02:05:38] Alexi Pappas: I think this person should do one minute on one minute off for 15 to 20 minutes and do that three to four days a week. And the walking is not bad. Walking is great because then when you’re running, your form is, you know, Then, you know, like better to walk, run 20 minutes, then run 10 minutes so that you are underneath yourself, you’re within yourself.

And if you’re wondering about pace, try running conversational pace. So a pace where you could talk to someone pretty comfortably. Or at least talk to somebody. That’s like a good way to gauge your pace versus looking at the watch.

[02:06:19] Gabby: Do you care if who you’re with runs at all? Like they can go for a run with you.

[02:06:24] Alexi Pappas: Yeah. I love running with you. I mean, do I like running? No.

[02:06:26] Gabby: Is it okay if they don’t?

[02:06:28] Alexi Pappas: Yeah, no. Oh, you mean my partner?

[02:06:30] Gabby: Yeah.

[02:06:31] Alexi Pappas: Oh no. I don’t expect that. Yeah, no, I don’t expect that.

[02:06:34] Gabby: Okay. Yeah. Just wondering.

[02:06:35] Alexi Pappas: It’s all good. I’m like, yeah. Can you imagine? Like, there are, there’s like a, there are a lot of people who date like people who can like pace them in workouts and stuff.

Yeah. That was never me. Um, but yeah, I don’t, I have plenty of friends who run.

[02:06:51] Gabby: And when you guide somebody, you, you guided a woman who was, uh, is it legally blind or what’s the technique? I mean, you, you, I think you talked about, it’s all about, uh, letting go in that, right? Just her when you, cause they can’t see, how do you guide them?

And, and What’s that like? I mean, that’s astounding.

[02:07:13] Alexi Pappas: I think everyone should try guiding if they’re curious because it is like a really awesome way to connect with people in the sport. Lisa, who I guide mostly, um, we are connected with a tether and we have learned how to use tension to communicate. So she knows like when there’s a certain amount of tension, we’re oriented properly.

And then if it, you know, if she feels the pole, that’s like us going, you know, if she’s on my right and she feels the pole, we’re moving to the left. If it’s too loose, like she doesn’t sense the tension. She needs to pull to the right of it. I’m bigger than her. So she’s never going to pull me over. And then, you know, we want to use tangents.

We don’t want to run 27 miles when everyone else is running 26. 2, right? There’s tactics to the fluid stations. I need to pay attention to pace. I need to pay attention to her competitors because she wants to win. She, she won the Boston marathon this year and we had to pass someone. You know, what’s her, what

[02:08:09] Gabby: was her time?

I’m just curious. We

[02:08:11] Alexi Pappas: ran, so she runs her PR is like three 25, but we ran under four hours this year. It was a very hot year and she had a lot of, she had some nerve pain going in, but that she did great. And then you’re an audio book. Right? Like, you get to tell them what they’re not seeing and take their mind off their pain by being like, All right, there’s someone carrying this surfboard running the marathon.

You know, you can make her laugh. Like, this is the neighborhood where you might want to live here, but I don’t know. It’s a little quiet. Like, oh, there’s a coffee shop, you know. Oh, there’s these kids. There’s bubbles. There’s bubbles. Like, and just getting her to,

So you get to be like a little narrator. It’s so beautiful. Uh, yeah, it’s fun. Oh my God. It’s so fun and, and competitive on somebody else’s behalf. So let’s talk about that energy that you talked about. Maybe you put it into somebody else. Right. And you help somebody else get to their goal and you’re competitive on their behalf.

Right. And that’s fun.

[02:09:10] Gabby: That’s powerful.

[02:09:11] Alexi Pappas: Yeah, it’s cool.

[02:09:12] Gabby: Yeah. Well, Alexi, I could talk to you all day. I, uh, I also want to end this with something I heard you say that I thought was really important and I thought I thought I would borrow it is you said that you practice putting your tongue. And to the back of your teeth so you would listen.

[02:09:28] Alexi Pappas: Yeah, I need to still get better about that.

[02:09:30] Gabby: Oh, you do great. I just thought that was important because I, I really want to listen and I think people all in their lives, especially in their personal lives, want to be better listeners. And I just thought that was a really, just a great technique and reminder.

[02:09:44] Alexi Pappas: Physical cues are easier, right? Than like a mental cue.

[02:09:48] Gabby: It’s so, cause it’s just, okay, boom.

[02:09:50] Alexi Pappas: Do it.

[02:09:50] Gabby: Yeah.

[02:09:51] Alexi Pappas: We all need physical cues, probably for everything.

[02:09:54] Gabby: All day long.

[02:09:55] Alexi Pappas: Right? And you and me, we still need to name the period of time when you’re developing, like into a sexier Oh, your blender period? Yeah, but that’s not the right word.

I feel like we need to figure that out, because what if it could be something that like, I’m thinking about like, You know, 19 year old girls who like just went through puberty. It’s really good for them. They’re kind of struggling on the team. They might stick it out. They don’t know, blah, blah, blah, blah.

They need some, like, they need like a state that feels kind of like cool,

[02:10:24] Gabby: sexy, impossible.

[02:10:25] Alexi Pappas: Yeah. That like represents the word development. So that they maybe have a chance to like see themselves through something that they’re curious about.

[02:10:35] Gabby: Yeah, I think that’ll be maybe make that your next book.

[02:10:37] Alexi Pappas: Yes.

We’ll call it the blender.

[02:10:41] Gabby: Well, you know someone always says that we’re always becoming right? Yeah, all of us, but these are Continuous, but I think that is a very for me personally. It was a very pivotal time I became a really different person from 17 entering college to To, you know, 20 when I left. Um, so I, I think we’re always doing that.

So can you direct people to all the places that they can find you? Cause there’s a lot.

[02:11:08] Alexi Pappas: I think my Instagram is the most updated place. I’m updating my website right now, which feels adult, but it’s not ready yet. So that would be, Just Alexipapas, which is A L E X I P A P P A S. I feel like my name sounds like a dinosaur name.

Alexi. Have you been

[02:11:28] Gabby: back to Greece?

[02:11:29] Alexi Pappas: Yeah, I went twice this year.

[02:11:31] Gabby: Okay, great.

[02:11:32] Alexi Pappas: Yes, great. I love that. I love going there. I don’t feel like I’m on vacation when I’m there. I feel like I’m just like home ish. Yeah. It’s like, it’s less, it’s not like, oh, it’s like, all right, I’m here.

[02:11:41] Gabby: Yeah. Wait, I have to ask you one thing.

Eating. Do you eat, if you’re racing early in the morning, do you eat anything?

[02:11:49] Alexi Pappas: Yeah. I eat four hours before a sandwich with peanut butter and sliced banana four hours before the race. That’s what I used to do. And I will still do that. I could, now I could be like a little more casual and not four hours before.

Could eat oatmeal, could eat other things. You see the cookie on the start line. Cause my coach did my, my Olympic coach used to do

[02:12:08] Gabby: a cookie on the star line,

[02:12:10] Alexi Pappas: but don’t get too adventurous and eat a blondie or you’ll poop your pants. Like I did. Um, I did that too. I got cocky. I was like, a cookie? Well, I’m gonna need a blondie from this, like, small town bakery in Maine.

And then I just pooped all over myself. Um. I love your earrings, by the way. I love the color green.

[02:12:29] Gabby: Me too. It’s my favorite. I love

[02:12:30] Alexi Pappas: the color green. Me too. It makes me feel good. Oh, isn’t it the best color? It has the

[02:12:33] Gabby: most shades of any color.

[02:12:35] Alexi Pappas: Oh, I didn’t know that. Yeah,

[02:12:36] Gabby: green has the most amount of shades of it in its color.

[02:12:39] Alexi Pappas: Oh, that’s cool. Makes

[02:12:40] Gabby: me feel good.

[02:12:41] Alexi Pappas: I love green. I love, love, love it.

[02:12:43] Gabby: Well, you’re, uh, you’re a gift to the world and I can’t wait to see, um, just your next projects and, and, uh, thank you for being, like I said, a sniper and in the daisies. I really. That’s. That’s the nicest. I really appreciate it. Thank

[02:12:55] Alexi Pappas: you.

[02:12:55] Gabby: Yeah. More sniper than Daisy, but it’s there.

[02:12:58] Alexi Pappas: Yeah. You know it. That’s because you and I can talk like that. It’s like some people are like, well, also you don’t need to wear your hard work on your sleeve. Like the Daisy is just that like, not everyone, I don’t need to be like, I’m great. Like I’m gritty. It’s like, you can assume that.

It’s not what I like traffic in. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

[02:13:15] Gabby: I just look in your eyeballs. I know you can tell. Oh yeah.

[02:13:18] Alexi Pappas: Oh, I like, I’m so happy to meet you. Rich was like, you gotta, you gotta meet her. And that, and I always take his, his advice with that stuff. Yeah. Thank you. Thank

[02:13:28] Gabby: you. Thanks everyone.

Thanks again for listening and spending time with us on the Gabby Reese show. I want to thank Alexi for joining me today. And a quick reminder, her new podcast, Mentor Buffet will be launching on Thursday, August 8th. Make sure you check it out and make sure you like and subscribe. So you never miss one of our conversations.

If you know someone who would benefit from the information shared today, please pass this episode along and leave a comment below sharing with us what you found insightful. Thanks again for listening. Keep going. Remember we’re. Playing the long game and I’ll see you next time.

About Alexi Pappas

Alexi Pappas is an Olympic runner and an award-winning filmmaker. Alexi’s critically acclaimed memoir-in-essays, Bravey, with a foreword by Maya Rudolph, was published in January 2021 and was the number 1 new release in both the sports and film categories on Amazon and was included in multiple “best books of the year” lists. A young reader’s edition of Bravey with a foreword by Maya Hawke will be published by Random House in 2023.

Alexi most recently directed and starred in the feature film NOT AN ARTIST alongside RZA, Ciara Bravo, Paul Lieberstein, Matt Walsh, and Haley Joel Osment (currently in post production). Alexi previously co-wrote and starred in the feature film OLYMPIC DREAMS alongside Nick Kroll, premiering at SXSW 2019. In 2016 Alexi co-wrote, co-directed, and starred in the feature film TRACKTOWN with a cast including Rachel Dratch (“Saturday Night Live”) and Andy Buckley (“The Office”).

Alexi’s writing have been published in the New York Times, Lenny Letter, Runner’s World Magazine, Women’s Running Magazine, Outside Magazine, and others; she has been profiled in the New York Times, CNN, Sports Illustrated, New York Magazine, Rolling Stone, and Armchair Expert. She was named the Runner’s World “Face of the New Boom in Running” and featured on the magazine’s 50th anniversary cover. Alexi was named one of the New York Times’ “8 Olympians Who’ve Got Social Media Game” in the Rio Olympic Games alongside Simone Biles and Serena Williams and was also named one of Outside Magazine’s “5 people saving running.”

A Greek-American, Alexi is the Greek national recordholder in the 10,000 meters with a personal best of 31:36 set at the Rio Olympics. Alexi graduated magna cum laude from Dartmouth College and also ran for the University of Oregon as a 5th year, leading the team to two NCAA victories. She lives in Los Angeles, California.

#279: Olympic Village is Stranger than You Could Imagine w. Alexi Pappas

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About Alexi Pappas