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Everyone goes to the bathroom. I mean, everybody poops and you don’t want to be talking about it at dinnertime, but that daily process has been turned into a taboo subject. Maybe it’s something people think we shouldn’t talk about because it’s gross, but the truth is not talking about bowel movements can be dangerous.

There really is so much someone is able to learn about themselves and their own health from their bowel movements. And my guest today, Dr. Will Bulsiewicz, Dr. B is an expert on gut health. In this conversation, he’s going to break down when you should be concerned about your bowel movements and the seven things you should be implementing right now into your diet to improve your gut health.

Foods discussed in this episode are:

Fruit and Fermented foods
Greens and Whole grains
Omega-3 super seeds
Aromatics like garlic and onions
Legumes
Shrooms (mushrooms), Seaweed, and Sprouts

Resources Mentioned:

Show Sponsors:

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Are you ready to ditch the guilt and the self-blame and finally achieve the life you deserve? Then grab your copy of “Unstoppable Brain” today! It’s available in hardcover, audiobook, and ebook on Amazon.

Time Stamps:

[00:00:00 – 00:10:00] The Power of Fiber in Medicine
[00:10:01 – 00:20:00] Understanding the Gut Microbiome
[00:20:01 – 00:30:00] Dr. B’s Personal Health Journey
[00:30:01 – 00:40:00] Misconceptions and Tips on Gut Health
[00:40:01 – 00:50:00] Rebuilding the Gut After Antibiotics

Show Transcript:

[00:02:26] Gabby: You know, I, I was thinking a lot about this conversation and, and I wanted to start, you have, you have two books, you have fiber fueled, which is the first book and you have a new book.

Well, it’s, it’s been out for a little bit, but the fiber fueled cookbook. And so, um, I always encourage people, uh, I think knowing fiber fueled, which really gives you sort of information about the gut and gut health. And then you sort of thought, Oh, that’s not enough. I’m going to actually. Break it down for people and really roll out an entire way of eating for them to, because I think that’s the big thing for people, right?

Is, is food always seems to be one of kind of like the big three obstacles and you really, you really make it achievable. But I want to, I want to jump. Um, right to where we are right now, as far as like some of the cutting edge stuff and then back into talking about gut health and, and what that, uh, is made up of.

Because I thought it was so interesting in doing the research for this, um, that you’re talking about really, really dynamic new information and studies about cancer and gut health and how. There are these sort of really dynamic things happening in this space that a lot of people don’t even know about yet.

And I was really interested actually in starting there.

[00:03:51] Will Bulsciewicz: Cool. Love that. Um, I think it’s an exciting time because basically medicine is undergoing a, undergoing a revolution where we discovered like really about 2006, we had new technology that was developed that allowed us for the first time to really adequately study the gut microbiome.

We discovered this world, we spent about 15 years just kind of describing what we were seeing. And now we’re finally into this new phase, Gabby, where we are looking at therapeutics and ways in which we can take advantage of these, these gut microbes that are adaptable. And we’ll talk more about that throughout, throughout the show.

They’re adaptable to our choices. And we can take advantage of them to achieve our health goals. And to me, like the fight against cancer is this, um, challenge that we are facing as a society, we don’t have great treatments. But there’s this new wave that has emerged called immunotherapy and it’s different because rather than directly attacking the cancer cells itself, it is instead empowering our immune system to fight the cancer for us.

And the area of research where this is most clearly visible right now is with melanoma. Melanoma is our most deadly form of skin cancer. And they’ve been using immunotherapy going back to when I was in my training at Northwestern, which is in the early 2000s. But what they’ve discovered about the gut microbiome is it seems a game changer.

So there’s a sequence of studies. I just want to lay them out for the listeners so they can hear this. So the first thing that they noticed, this was a few years ago, is that patients who were receiving immunotherapy for melanoma. If they were exposed to antibiotics, they didn’t do as well. Now you could argue the reason why they’re getting antibiotics is because they’re sick.

So they actually did a study to look at this without them being sick. Like, you know, they have melanoma, but they’re not necessarily requiring antibiotics for infection. And they tested this and they discovered that, no, no, hold up. If you give antibiotics, which of course destroy bacteria indiscriminately, people don’t do as well with immunotherapy.

That’s interesting. So they said maybe the gut microbiome is important, which makes sense because if you look at the gut microbiome, it is in close proximity to 70 percent of our immune system, which is what we’re trying to use to fight the cancer. So their next study was to take a look. What if we do. a fecal transplant.

They’re going to replace the old microbiome with a new microbiome, at least temporarily, and see what happens. So they did this, and in people that had previously failed immunotherapy, so these are people that like don’t have many treatment options, And frankly, they’re not in a good spot. And they gave them a new microbiome through fecal transplant and a very large percentage of them, like way more than expected, actually had amazing outcomes in terms of their fight against melanoma.

So with this in mind, they then asked the question, well, maybe we don’t have to be so radical with fecal transplants and things like this. What if diet, what if diet is in play as something that can change the way in which we treat cancer with this, these immunotherapy drugs? So they took a look at fiber.

And what they discovered, which was, I mean, to me, ridiculous and also exciting is that for every five grams of fiber that a person has in their diet, they increase their likelihood of survival in beating this cancer by over 30%. So five grams of fiber, 30 percent increased chance likelihood of survival and beating cancer.

That is amazing. And so now they’re in the process of validating this with clinical trials, but the bottom line is that there’s this path that you can see through the antibiotics, the fecal transplant, and through dietary fiber that basically opens up this This opportunity where oncologists are now looking at the gut microbiome and saying, let’s not just give the immunotherapy.

Let’s ask the question, what can we do with the gut microbiome to empower that immunotherapy and make it more effective?

[00:08:18] Gabby: And I found it interesting that you were also sharing that the cancer cells themselves also have their own, I guess, microbiome or their own colony, if you will.

[00:08:34] Will Bulsciewicz: Yeah, it’s almost, to be honest with you, it’s almost a bit bizarre, even for me and I’m a medical doctor and I study these things for a living.

Um, they took a look at the microbiome of, of pancreatic tumors. So now pancreatic, pancreatic cancer is one of our most deadly forms of cancer. And um, one of the things that they discovered is that number one, the tumor has a microbiome. Number two, that microbiome could like, it could vary from one tumor to the next.

And there were characteristics of the microbiome in the cancer that predicted the response to treatment. And so this is another interesting thing is that like you wouldn’t imagine that like you would think that a tumor is sterile and it’s not, it has a microbiome that microbiome actually determines in some ways how it will respond to the chemotherapy that you’re giving,

[00:09:31] Gabby: you know, I.

I think sometimes it’s coming from like, you know, my background, which is not medical and always finding it so interesting that at times we have really kind of separated in medicine, you know, we’re dealing with symptoms and not causes. And I really feel inspired that. Because that doesn’t work that really it’s, it’s showing up more and more that we’re really considering the whole body now in treatments, I’m always curious because, you know, there is a time and a place people do have to take antibiotics, you know, it’s sort of like do everything you can, but then there’s a time it’s like, hey, that’s what it’s for.

And it can really, uh, It can be sort of needed or really important if somebody just went through a cycle of, uh, having to do, you know, seven to 10 days of antibiotics, because like you said, it just kind of goes through and clears house a bit. How would you suggest someone rebuilding their gut? Because I know a lot of people get concerned with that and they don’t really know how to go about.

boosting their gut after something like that.

[00:10:38] Will Bulsciewicz: Yeah. I actually think that this process of supporting the gut starts before you even get the antibiotics to be totally honest with you. I mean, I’m in a place where I feel like the gut microbiome and what we’re learning about the gut microbiome is so critically important to who we are and our health that you should not wait until you have a problem to acknowledge it.

We should be acknowledging it today and, um, and the things that we’re going to discuss like even within the context of receiving antibiotics are ideas and concepts that can be applied to you, whether you have, like, whether you require antibiotics or not, you can start doing these things right now. So, um, first and foremost, we want to make sure that we’re adequately consuming dietary fiber.

Prior to receiving the antibiotics and dietary fiber, I guess, you know, I’ve mentioned it now a few times and I’m sure I’ll mention it more, more than once in the, in the, in the rest of the show that I should, I should explain what’s going on here. So fiber is a complex carbohydrate that comes from plant foods.

And the issue with it is that it’s not digestible with human enzymes. We don’t have the enzymes to break down fiber, but living inside of us inside of our large intestine, our colon, there’s this community of microorganisms, which we call the microbiome and their number is, um, quite staggering. So in this location, we have.

38 trillion microbes. Now that number 38 trillion is fascinating because that would be like us taking the entire solar system, the entire universe of stars and shrinking it down and playing, placing 380 solar systems, full of stars into our large intestine to equal the number of microbes, bacteria, fungi, and other types.

That you and I have living inside of us literally right now. It also is interesting because we clearly are less than 50 percent human. The number of human cells that we have is on the order of 30 trillion. The number of bacterial cells and other within our microbiome is 38 trillion. So we are clearly less than 50 percent human.

These microbes serve a purpose. They do many things. One of the things they do is break down fiber. And when they do this, they release what are called short chain fatty acids, which are the most healing, most anti inflammatory thing that I’ve ever come across in 25 years of study in medicine. So, um, with this in mind, Uh, we, we need to be increasing our fiber intake prior to taking the antibiotics.

We want to be on a high fiber diet while we’re on antibiotics. We want to continue that high fiber diet after the antibiotics. Now that is not the entirety of the plan, but that is like, to me, that is the centerpiece of the plan. I’m also a believer in taking prebiotic fiber supplements during this time.

So if you haven’t been doing that, it’s a great time to add some soluble fiber to your routine. You can start immediately. You don’t have to wait till after the antibiotics. You can start today. Um, as we move forward, this is the time to not be sabotaging our own gut health. It’s a great opportunity for us to take a step back and, Look at things like sugar intake and ultra processed foods and alcohol intake and kind of say, okay, like I’m going to make a concerted effort for the next two or ideally four weeks to try to avoid these things, avoid those toxins and instead double down on a little more exercise, a little more time outdoors, making sure you get, get a good night’s rest.

And then this whole strategy around dietary fiber that we get from both our diet and our And simultaneously from supplements.

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I know that right now you’ve made a shift and you’re not, um, you’re not seeing patients, you’re moving on to sort of expanding the message. But I’m always, my million dollar question is always, And what is it that you’ve seen when you were dealing with patients and in your practice that keeps people from best practices?

[00:18:19] Will Bulsciewicz: think we all have challenges. I think that, I think that our culture creates challenges for us. Like we, Gabby, we have normalized a life that’s very abnormal. And if we compare it to the way that, you know, who we are descended from. Uh, our grandparents or maybe the generation before that, it’s radically different the way that we live.

I mean, here we are and as adults, 60 percent of our calories in the United States come from ultra processed foods. These are foods that didn’t exist, um, a hundred years ago and they’re industrial foods, um, concocted by food scientists in a lab. using chemicals that like really the vast majority of them have had marginal to no testing on humans.

So that’s 60 percent of our calories. Our kids, 70 percent of their calories come from these ultra processed foods. And here we are, and we’re facing childhood obesity and childhood diabetes and childhood fatty liver disease. Like this is disturbing. And I think that the other aspect to this is The fast pace of the world that we live in and, um, the problem is these ultra processed foods.

They fulfill things that we’re looking for far too perfectly because they’re quick and they’re easy and they have been strategically formulated to hit on your taste buds in a way that make you come back. And so, and then they’re cheap. Um, you can feed a family at McDonald’s way cheaper than it costs to go get like one salad.

So these are all sort of part of the problem. So I think that we need to find ways within our modern life. I still think there’s strategies and we just have to be intentional and we have to make the decision that we’re going to work through this because once you make that decision and once you find the strategies that work for you and your family, you just double down.

You stick with it. You don’t have to create a new recipe every single week. You just find what works for you and then you go back to it.

[00:20:29] Gabby: You, you are, you’re a really big advocate of consistency and, and being consistent. So let’s say you have four small children and your life is very, very hectic, but also, and I, I’ve looked at this myself, like part of my life or my business business is kind of around having the luxury to go, no, I’m going to really, Prioritize my health.

I’m going to, um, you know, do this for my family. Like it, now it’s almost become like to have that opportunity is a luxury, right? Like I’m I, when I was an athlete, it’s like I could train for a living, but let’s say you have a person who, um, you know, they are, they’re overwhelmed. They’re busy. They’re maybe not that informed.

You know, they’re not a gym rat or somebody who’s really, you know, doing deep dives with, uh, you know, You know, Huberman and, and, uh, whatever Gabrielle lion or just, you know, people that are really trying to put out information and people like yourself, where are the places to practice? Because like you said, people are moving in a million different directions.

I think they try for a day or seven and then they give up because it gets away from them. What have you seen show up? Cause I know how to do it from the extreme way, right? Like you prepare your food, you have all your, you know, you write down what you’re going to eat. You grocery shop for vegetables every two, three days.

Like we get that. But what about for the person who’s like, Hey, this, this whole thing is new to me. And I really want to figure out how to over, you know, how to do it on the food side. I mean, listen, I want to encourage people. If you can walk, um, four or five days a week, even if you can’t get to a gym, do bot.

You know, I saw something wonderful by Rhonda Patrick, you know, if you can do 10 body squats every hour, that’s sort of better than, you know, 30 minutes walking. So let’s leave the movement stuff out aside. And, you know, getting to bed, what about tackling and navigating got some kids, everybody’s running in different directions, a starting point.

[00:22:39] Will Bulsciewicz: So I think that to me, where I would start is we have to reset expectations. We have to reset expectations, establish them in a place that actually people can accomplish. Um, take away any sort of, um, uh, high standards of like, you’re not good enough. That’s nonsense. You are good enough. You deserve this.

You will feel better when you do this. And small choices really start to add up if you can do them consistently. In order to accomplish that, it has to be sustainable. So I’m completely against the idea of like, um, some sort of program that you’re going to do for a limited period of time. And then it’s like, and then you’re just left to your own devices.

I would far rather the idea of you saying, okay, here’s the expectation this week, you’re going to make one meal. That’s going to take a step in the right direction for you and what defines that meal can be many things But let’s keep it super simple. It’s a whole food meal, right? This is not ultra processed foods It’s just whole foods and I want you to make it something that you love and that’s delicious and in a perfect world Something that’s actually reasonable in the kitchen like you could actually get this done So if you go back to when I started on my journey go back to 2012, right?

I was in my early 30s And I was miserable. And in a dark place, literally, like, um, anxious, depressed, basically laying under a blanket in a dark room, watching trashy TV all day, eating trash, eating junk food. Um, I was 50 pounds overweight. I had high blood pressure, high cholesterol. I had gut issues. And how did I get myself out of that mess?

It started with a blender. That was it. I literally decided one day instead of going to Hardee’s where in North Carolina, I was in Chapel Hill, North Carolina, instead of, instead of getting 2, 500 calories for 5, I’m going to go home and I’m going to load this blender up. And then I’m just going to press the buzz button.

And I’m going to see what it tastes like. And that’s easy.

[00:24:59] Gabby: Were you already with your wife at this time?

[00:25:03] Will Bulsciewicz: I had met my wife.

[00:25:04] Gabby: Okay.

[00:25:05] Will Bulsciewicz: And we went on a date. We were in Carrboro, North Carolina, a restaurant called Acme. And, uh, and I got my usual food and I looked across the table at this person and she was eating radically different than anyone I’d ever been around.

And she was plant based and, um, all I knew was that in that moment, I looked at this person and I knew here I am and I’m, I’m struggling, like I’m fighting. And I want to be better and do better, but I don’t know how, which is crazy because I was a board certified internal medicine doctor.

[00:25:39] Gabby: Well, this is the part that’s so fascinating is it isn’t enough to know.

Were you in all of your studies, were you, what did you think about the gut? Were you guys talking about the gut or not really?

[00:25:59] Will Bulsciewicz: Not really. Um, see, this is the thing. Nutrition is this thing that’s just not a part of allopathic medicine. It’s sad. It’s sad. It should be, right? I mean, look at the food that we serve to people in a hospital.

It’s disturbing and we should know better. It’s so obvious. Come on. And yet here we are and we just go about our business ignoring it like who cares? They’ll be all right. Just take your medicine. It’s crazy. Um, so this was not a part of my training, Gabby. I became a gastroenterologist, not because of gut health.

I became a gastroenterologist, but then I was the guy who needed the help and I was looking for a way out and I was looking to try to fix it. And it was, and it was meeting my wife and discovering this other way of eating and starting with a blender filled up with like basically making a smoothie. And when this, when I was the one who achieved the health transformation, it became a thing because I care a lot.

So it became a thing that I had no choice at that point. I had to deliver this to my patients. And I became stubborn about it, even though the system doesn’t want me to do this. And so I would, I would spend my free time basically studying and where this led me very quickly because I, my field gastroenterology was on the, you know, the cutting edge when it comes to the gut microbiome, this was like appearing in our space first.

So basically it was like, Oh my gosh, look at how food has transformed my life. Look at this new science of the gut microbiome. What if I start doing this with people that have irritable bowel syndrome or ulcerative colitis or acid reflux? And when I started doing that, which was roughly 2014, I was watching them have amazing transformations.

And like, we’re getting now to the root of the issue. We’re not just covering it up with drugs. Amazing. So it got to a point where I felt like I have to share this story. Like people need to hear this. And that’s what basically led me to where I am today, which is like, I, I wasn’t trying to become an author.

We’re trying to become a spokesperson for gut health. It just happened because I’ve had this message that needs to be shared.

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I just think it’s ironic and really perfect that you can relate because you went through it. You know, it’s like you, you can, you’ve been where your parent, your patients have been. Um, you, you talk sort of these three steps and you just mentioned one of them. So one, and I always want to have conversations around this is believing.

That it can be different. So you talk about having hope really coming into it, um, as a way of like, I can be different, I can feel different, I can look different, I can sleep different, I, you know, cause people don’t realize to the gut, it’s pretty much, it’s your moods, it’s your hormones, it’s your waistline.

It’s the whole, it’s the, it’s the. Package so much is impacted from your, from your gut. Um, and then you say you have to get to the root cause. You’re not going to mask things, um, but really try to get in there and, and figure out the root cause and then, then create a strategy, a real plan for healing. Um, so for you, did you notice Within a couple of weeks, like, huh, I just feel less aches and pains.

I have a little more energy. What was the, what were the things that showed up for you that also kept you inspired to keep going?

[00:31:55] Will Bulsciewicz: I noticed immediately, honestly, I noticed immediately because I was sick and not feeling well. And when you are in that place, you just desperately want to feel better. This was a very, you know, this is a perfect example of where something that was not a great moment in my life turned out to be a massive blessing in disguise.

And so, and when I did that change, when I, you know, for example, drink that smoothie for the first time, I felt lighter, I felt energized and I felt different. It’s like something that my body was missing. Suddenly it was receiving. And so when you feel, when you feel unwell and you find something that makes you start to turn that corner, you just want to feel better.

That’s where I was at. And so that’s what allowed me to like, basically ignore the fast food and double, triple, quadruple down on doing this because I felt so much better.

[00:32:52] Gabby: Do you think if you, I, I’m going to go on a limb and say that you probably, you know, were inspired by your then girlfriend, now wife, that she was maybe an impetus for, for change besides not feeling good, but maybe thinking, oh, this, this person, I’m, I’m interested in them.

I’m, you know, do you, do you think that besides not feeling well, was it having a little bit of almost a support system, whether it was quiet or not, that really was helpful?

[00:33:25] Will Bulsciewicz: You know, it’s an interesting thing. She never directly addressed this with me at any point. She never, she never said anything about it, but I was self motivated by it.

Maybe it was a little bit paranoid. I really wanted her to like me. And I mean, I’m going back to those days. It was, you know, it’s like, it’s fun, but it’s also nerve wracking. Right. And it’s anxiety provoking. And, um, I just wanted her to like me and, you know, these areas that we’re talking about are my areas of insecurity.

So I, yes, I was motivated. I did want to lose the weight and, and be healthier and stronger and look better. And, um, but at the same time, part of what she did is opened my mind because I think that like one of the things that I didn’t understand, but I get now is that I was raised on a diet that was frankly celebrated in my family.

And that was just like, this is the way we eat hot dogs, you know, five days a week. Um, cold cut subs seven days a week. Right. I mean, we’re talking about like the least healthy food out there. And this was my normal and I was the guy who among my peers, my friends, they used to joke and rag on me for how trashy my diet was.

And I would just laugh like, aha, you know, well, I wasn’t laughing when I was in my early thirties and sick. Um, and what, one of the things that I tried to do, um, I don’t know if you can relate to this or not. I’m sure some of the listeners can. I tried to exercise my way out of this hole that I was in. And so, and I’m a very hard worker.

I’m a type a personality. I’m very goal oriented. So basically like I was in the gym. I’m not kidding. When I say, um, I would do like strength training for an hour a day. And then I would either, depending on the time of year, either run a five to 10 K, or if it was summertime, I jumped in the pool and I did 50 to a hundred laps and I could get stronger.

I could get faster. I could swim better, but I actually could not fix these health issues. So, which was perplexing to me. Cause I always thought that that would fix those problems. And then I could eat whatever I want. And so it was meeting my wife that opened my mind to the possibility. It seems so obvious, but I think when you’re in it, it’s not necessarily obvious where it’s like, holy cow, the way that I’ve eating and eating my entire life, the way that’s been celebrated within my family to eat.

[00:35:58] Gabby: Yeah. And I think that’s where I

[00:35:58] Will Bulsciewicz: need to address it.

[00:36:00] Gabby: I think it’s so fascinating because everybody’s like, Oh, I, you know, and people know about epigenetics and, you know, turning the good and bad switches on and off and things like that. But people will say, Oh, well this is how my family is. And we, you know, this is, I inherited their genetics and it is amazing.

That the lifestyle that we inherit from our family and we don’t realize it that is, um, it’s so interesting to move, not move away from, but just, you know, make adjustments as, as we become adults. So I want to, I think, I do find it fascinating that you’re a doc, that you were a doctor who, um, you know, it’s just sort of interesting that you’re struggling with your own health.

Did you ever go to other doctors and talk to them about it? Or, you know, co workers or peers.

[00:36:51] Will Bulsciewicz: No, because I, I was in a, like literally at Northwestern in Chicago, I won the highest award in my residency class out of 60 people. So like from my perspective, it’s like, what am I, what am I going to do to go to the doctor?

I know this.

[00:37:05] Gabby: Right.

[00:37:05] Will Bulsciewicz: I know this. Right. But the problem was in that moment, um, I didn’t want my own medicine. I didn’t want the things that I had trained for all these years and worked so hard to like understand and learn these things. I didn’t want those things in that moment. So this was like a quite eye opening experience for me to discover, like in my own, in my own moment of need, I didn’t want to just take pills,

[00:37:30] Gabby: right?

So you, am I right in saying that about 5 percent of people get enough fiber every day ish in their diet?

[00:37:41] Will Bulsciewicz: Yes, 5%. That’s right. And I mean, to me, this is our most pressing nutritional deficiency. Um, not just because it connects to our gut microbiome, but the health benefits that we receive when we consume an adequate amount of fiber.

You know, a quick example, I’ll just share my favorite fiber study of all time. I hope you don’t mind.

[00:38:01] Gabby: I want you to share everything.

[00:38:03] Will Bulsciewicz: Okay. Well, we’re going to be here for a little while then, but, um, the, my favorite fiber study was this systematic review and meta analysis by professor Andrew Reynolds, who’s from New Zealand.

And he, the reason that you do a systematic review and meta analysis, basically what this is, is you’re compiling all the available data so that like, there’s no cherry picking. You don’t get to pick whatever study you like the most and say, this is the one you’re just putting it all together. And then you’re going to rerun the analysis and you’re going to see what pops out.

And so basically when he did this, uh, this massive meta analysis, he had over. 130 million person years of data. Okay. So let me frame that for a quick moment, cause it’s worth pausing to acknowledge this. We humans have only existed for like on the order of three or maybe three and a half million years.

So this is more than 130 million years of data. This is the entirety of human history, 40 times over. And so, and when they compiled the data, here’s what they found. People. who consume more dietary fiber. They live longer. They’re less likely to have a heart attack. They’re less likely to die from heart disease.

By the way, that’s our number one killer. They’re less likely to be diagnosed with multiple forms of cancer that includes esophageal cancer, breast cancer, and colon cancer. Uh, they’re less likely to die from cancer, our number two killer. They’re less likely to have a stroke, which I believe is number five.

They’re less likely to be diagnosed with diabetes, which I believe is number seven. They didn’t look at kidney disease or Alzheimer’s disease, which are also in the top 10. But by the way, there’s studies, there’s meta analyses on those as well, showing that fiber is protective. In randomized control trials, people who consume more fiber, they lose weight, they lower their blood pressure, they lower their cholesterol, and they improve their diabetes.

So I know that’s a lot, but like I just threw in four of the top 10 causes of death, or we can expand to six if we look beyond this one study. And, you know, here we are, Gabby, and 95 percent of Americans are not just like marginally deficient. We’re wildly deficient. The average woman in the US consumes 15 grams of fiber per day.

She should be getting at least 25 minimum. The average man gets 18. It sounds like we’re doing better. Heck no, we’re not. The average man should be getting 38 grams of fiber per day. We’re way deficient. That’s like less than half. So we got a long way to go, but it, it goes, it comes back to, let’s start somewhere simple.

If you have one meal. That includes fiber, whole plant foods. You’re going to be in a great spot and you’re going to be making steps in the right direction.

[00:40:42] Gabby: So a lot of times, uh, people will start to add, cause in a different way, like you said, your, your body can’t digest some of these it’s with the assistance.

of the team and your gut, um, which I always found fascinating. I think I read in, I don’t know if it was 10 percent human, which I know there’s some fallacies in that book found out now, but where it was like, there’s things that our body didn’t even make, or we don’t have because we’re relying upon the cooperation with these organisms to make these functions happen.

I thought it was kind of interesting. It’s like, Nature goes, okay, you don’t even need to have that because the organisms in there in cooperation with you will create this, you know, system or, or byproduct. Um, but

[00:41:29] Will Bulsciewicz: there’s a reason for this. I think for, I’m sorry to interrupt you, but I, I feel like it’s actually quite fascinating topic.

[00:41:37] Gabby: It’s well, it’s incredible that like how we get to save because they’re gonna do the work on a certain side for us. I mean, it’s extraordinary.

[00:41:49] Will Bulsciewicz: Yeah. And we, and there’s a reason for this, which is that we as humans are, we’re not adaptable. Our evolution, we don’t evolve easily. We evolve over millions of years, not over hundreds of years.

And yet these microbes can change in 24 hours. And as humans left Africa and radiated out across the planet, think of all of the different environmental conditions that humans had to figure out a way to survive and deal with. And we had to be, have a gut that was adaptable to a varied diet. That would be different things in different places.

And I think that like one of the stories is the adaptability of the gut because of our gut microbes. It’s a symbiotic relationship. We, we need one another. We help one another. And this is the reason why we outsourced so many of these things because they can change very quickly and we can’t. So that’s their superpower.

You

[00:42:44] Gabby: know, I can’t help but think about technology and how we are moving at a really a natural speed for our biology, the way we’re changing and changing our, so many elements of our lifestyle. I’m curious for you first as a parent. If there’s things that you have in your mind about wanting to fortify your children and in a different way, um, because of our, our lack of biological adaptability, but yet, you know, certain things that the world is demanding of us, do you, is there things that, that you mull over?

Because I know, You care about patients and obviously you’re doing something else, but just as a dad, who’s really informed, do you have things that you’re doing to help your children? Because I think it’s, that’s also part of the equation, nevermind just our food. I think there’s some other things that are really taxing on us, um, that are, that are difficult.

[00:43:49] Will Bulsciewicz: Yeah. I mean, there’s no doubt. I, um, we have ways in which we are very different as a family and we have embraced this. We have taught our kids from a young age. Yeah. We have taught our kids from a young age. This is, we’re different than other families and this is the way that we do it and we’re proud to be a Bolshevist.

So, um, the answer I’m going to give, please forgive me, don’t be mad at me, both you Gabby and the listeners at home, but I’m just going to be honest because I’m going to tell you what I worry about. I don’t like TikTok. I don’t like TikTok.

[00:44:25] Gabby: Yeah.

[00:44:25] Will Bulsciewicz: In fact, we could extend this beyond, it’s not just TikTok. The reason why I’m calling out TikTok is because it’s the one that all the kids are using.

But um, I think social media in general, it’s quite toxic. This environment is quite toxic and our children, they have a brain that’s like very rapidly changing and evolving during their teenage years. And when we expose them to what’s happening on these platforms, it changes, it changes the way that their brain is evolving, um, during that time and in a negative way.

And it’s no coincidence that if you look at depression rates right now among teenagers, Particularly young women, they’re off the charts. They’ve increased fourfold, um, since 2011. And that’s a disturbing thing. And by the way, what was it in 2011 that happened? Um, there’s two major things that took place right around 2011, like right around 2011.

And one of them is, I think is like October of 2010. One, um, Instagram. So we started prioritizing photos and stopped prioritizing conversations. But number two, the forward facing camera phone. Um, So that we were taking selfies and now we’re comparing ourselves to others. And, um, I think that we’re all guilty in some way of envy.

I think we’re all guilty in some way of keeping up with the Joneses and it’s stressful and it actually turns out to be quite harmful to our body. And in fact, believe it or not, this gets internalized and does affect your gut. And I could unpack that if you want me to, but it ends up, it ends up affecting your gut microbiome in a negative way.

And so from my perspective, this is a broader conversation. Like obviously we’ve been talking about food and now we’re talking about. Um, social interaction and, but like, again, it’s not just tick tock. It’s social media. I think that these, these platforms are antisocial and we’re losing our ability to connect with other humans.

[00:46:24] Gabby: Do you think a kid in 1990 on a, on a fast food diet has had a better microbiome? Then a kid who’s on the same diet, but now managing, because I agree with you. That’s why I bring it up. I think that it’s these invisible factors that don’t live in the bucket of, Oh, exercise and nutrition. Yeah. We talk about community, but people, I don’t think give it it’s due respect on how impactful it is on our, on our organism.

Um, I’m just curious, like, uh, if somebody was. It’s maybe I put in quotes healthier, uh, before all of that and, and is there a way to manage it or is it just, you know, try to isolate a time that you use it and then make sure you’re balancing it out with enough, you know, real human contact.

[00:47:22] Will Bulsciewicz: So I think we need, I think we need rules and regulations and I think that it has to start in our own home cause that’s where we have control.

Um, you don’t have

[00:47:31] Gabby: teenagers, Dr. B,

[00:47:33] Will Bulsciewicz: you

[00:47:35] Gabby: still have control, my friend. So how are you implementing this for now?

[00:47:41] Will Bulsciewicz: All right. Well, I think like, how am I implementing this? First and foremost, my children don’t have smartphones, um, but my kids are a little bit young. Yeah. So. So, but this is, this is our expectation is to continue to enforce this over time.

Um, that’s what we’re doing in our own house. But I think, I think that there is a, um, a broader conversation here about what’s going on. So, cause part of this is the antisocial nature. Part of this is the way that people treat each other on the internet. Like people say stuff to me all the time that they would never say to my face.

Right. I’m six foot four and over 200 pounds. And I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t say that to my face.

[00:48:21] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[00:48:22] Will Bulsciewicz: Um, and they do that to these kids and they get bullied. Bullying is a whole nother level compared to when you and I were kids, Gabby. And the other thing that I think about a lot is that, okay, so let me ask you a question.

When you were a kid, Um, and you had free time. What did you do?

[00:48:40] Gabby: Yeah, you went outside and you played and, and also there was that, that space and time for boredom. And I think that’s another thing that I even catch in myself where I’m it’s like, let yourself be bored. That’s when you sit with your thoughts and feelings.

That’s when ideas come. That’s when. When all kinds of powerful things, um, what is it comfort crisis talked about it? I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s everywhere at no time. Are we bored anymore? And, and, you know, going out and playing is something, um, you know, you talk about that too, like people just being out in nature, just being out in nature improves your microbiome.

[00:49:19] Will Bulsciewicz: Yes. So, um, actually, this was something that, It was sort of a revelation for me, which is that I used to think that it was just like, Oh, well, we humans, we have microbes that live inside of us. But like most of the world is, you know, not microbial, not like it’s like sterile. That’s not the case. The only things that are sterile are the things that have come into contact with some sort of human construct.

Like we, we create sterility as humans, ultra processed foods are sterile. The homes and edifices that we live in, they’re pretty much sterile. Um, but if you go outside into nature, All life either has a microbiome or is a part of someone’s microbiome. And like, depending on how you like, you know, the idea is you could zoom in or you could zoom out.

Right. So if you zoomed in on the microbes living inside of us, they would actually look a lot like us as humans. I mean, they’re there, they have communities and they have clicks and friends and people that they work with. And, um, and they have unique skill sets and they have dietary preferences and some of them, like they have personalities, like some of them are friendly and some of them are not.

Right. And if we zoomed out and we kept zooming out, like you would zoom out and you would see us humans. Right. And then you zoom out further. And you start to realize that actually the humans are the microbiome to the larger ecosystem, which is this planet. Right? And when we’re up in the sky on an airplane, you look down and you know, there’s people there, but you can’t see them.

And that’s kind of like our microbiome, you know, there’s microbes there, but you can’t see them. So the trees, they have a microbiome and they’re giving off these microbes. They’re sharing them. When we come into contact with the soil, with the trees, uh, with our environment, uh, These are all things that are actually really, really good for us and grounding.

And when I was a kid, I played outside and I think that there’s another aspect, which is the creativity from the, from playing outside. And, you know, we built forts and did things like that. And we ran around and we rode bikes. And I specifically remember, cause I was born in 1980. I specifically remember the year that Nintendo came out and it changed everything in a bad way.

Like, did I enjoy playing Nintendo as a kid? Heck yeah. Um, but that was nothing compared to social media in terms of addiction potential. And I went from wanting to build forts with my friends to what do I have to do mom so that I can have some time playing Nintendo. Right. And now how many hours a day do these kids spend on social media?

Are you ready for this? Five and a half hours per day, right? And I’m pretty sure that’s not while they’re exercising. So this it’s, it’s not just the actual device itself. It’s the device and what that device is pulling them away from that they could be doing. And I think that consciousness around digital technology and devices is where we need to go.

As parents, as humans, and even within ourselves. So, you know, one of the things when it comes to like leadership, right. In a business, don’t ask people to do something that you’re not willing to do yourself in parenting. Don’t ask your kids to do something because you said it show them. And so, you know, one of the things that I’m guilty of because I have a large social media following is like opening it up and like checking it while I’m at dinner and my wife, thankfully has been like.

What are you doing? And you got to turn it off. So you know, part of this, one of the strategies that I would encourage people to have, whether you have kids or not, this should be a part of your life. You need to have dedicated mealtimes with no devices where you are talking to people and looking them in the eye.

And I think this is more than just like interacting with your kids, although I think that’s like an important part of this. It’s also interacting with each other as adults.

[00:53:20] Gabby: Yeah, it it’s true. My husband will walk in and be like, Oh, everybody’s on their phone You know he because he’ll come in and somehow like the whole house is sitting there together and they’re on their phone And it’s I I find it I mean, it’s it’s like it is I had a friend ten years ago saying then the machines are controlling the humans and And he goes, just look at them.

And he, and he goes, look, everyone’s faces in the, they call it, we call it the block in our house. Like, Oh, got your face in the block. But in a way, like it’s leading you around. And sometimes when you really observe it, I think it’s, um, you know, I, I try to look at it with curiosity and go, Oh, wow, that is powerful.

How, you know, how are you going to change that? So I think it’s, it’s always important to remind people that we can be doing all the right things. We can be getting our exercise in and eating really well. But things, these, these nuances like technology and stress, um, kind of kick our ass in a whole other way that we just want to stay mindful of.

Um, you know, we’re never going to get it perfect. We’re going to be better some days than others, but to really give it as much respect, uh, as, Hey, I’m going to eat this. Cause I think we, we sort of forget that at times, you know?

[00:54:44] Will Bulsciewicz: Yeah, I totally agree. I actually think that that’s an important point and I thank you for bringing that up, which is that there are people who do everything right.

I’ve seen these people, um, like many of them have been my patients. I, I, my clinic basically was set up in a way where for the last few years, I was the one who took people who would come in. We’re there for their fifth, sixth, seventh opinion. And, um, and what I have learned is that you can do everything right.

Eat the right food, sleep, exercise, everything, meditate. And if there’s something in your life that is troubling you, um, whether you are conscious of it, or it’s something from your past that’s in your subconscious, it is, uh, actually creating chronic inflammation. In a way that you cannot overcome with those traditional tools and, um, and this comes back to one of the themes, I believe that’s emerging from our conversation today, which is identifying the root of the problem.

And so for me, as a gastroenterologist, I’m not a therapist and I don’t pretend to be. But I do see these connections that exist between stress, um, or trauma and our, um, digestive health. And actually the moments in my career of healing that I’m the most proud of are not where I got people to change their diet.

The moments that I’m most proud of are when I had a person that I nurtured a close enough relationship with them that they were able to open up to me about something that. They don’t like talking about and the minute that that becomes visible and clear, um, then it, you understand why they’re here and why they’re not getting better.

And when they fix, like when they directly address that specific issue that they’ve frankly been like running away from, when you do that, it’s life changing and there, I like to describe them as a rocket ship that’s being chained down because that rocket is firing and they’re ready to go. And all you got to do is release the chains.

[00:56:59] Gabby: I think that’s the most important, listen, I’ve had a million conversations around metabolic function and gut health. And what you start to realize is you just utilize those best practices. To really get to our real stuff, to get to the thing of like, Oh, when I was a kid and Oh, this happened or this relationship or with my parent or someone who comes back.

And I think sometimes people get buried under, they don’t even get to that part, which is already so complicated. And so realizing Yeah, I want to be healthy and I want to age well and yeah, manage my body composition and feel good and all these things, but really, at the end of the day, what I’ve learned doing this so long is that I have a fighting shot at getting to my own B.

S. and the things that really, Are a challenge for me. My lessons in this life. Um, when I, I kind of cleared the decks on some of the other stuff and, you know, if you’re walking around gassy all day and you can’t sleep and you’re fighting with everybody and you’re depressed, you never even get to some of the, some of the deeper things.

And, and I, and so I’ve really come to a place where when I talk about health, that’s more of what I’m, I’m talking about. Um, so I want to, I do want to go back to the gut cause listen, both your books have the word fiber in it. Maybe you can just talk about, you have key, you know, seven elements. That you talk about for gut health,

[00:58:34] Will Bulsciewicz: uh, seven elements.

My, um, is this my F goals or yes, I,

[00:58:39] Gabby: yes, your F goals. And, and, um, you know, just, you know, giving people kind, you know, concrete reminders about, um, you know, things that have to, you know, be present in order to accomplish some gut health.

[00:58:59] Will Bulsciewicz: Yeah. Well, I think the, the, the idea, so I have this acronym F goals, which helps me to remember sort of the foundational foods and let’s just be honest.

I mean, I’ll be honest. I’ll speak for myself. Um, I don’t eat these foods on a daily basis and you shouldn’t feel pressure to eat these foods on a daily basis. This is more just having an understanding of like what are the general foods that I’m trying to gravitate towards. And by the way, also your, your diet doesn’t need to be exclusively these foods.

You can certainly add to this. At the end of the day, as I’ve mentioned earlier, you should have a diet that you love. That’s delicious. And that’s sustainable because that’s ultimately how you’re going to propel yourself to success. So anyway, um, F goals, uh, each letter represents at least one thing in some cases, multiple.

So F stands for fruit. and fermented. So, quick comment, fruit, um, not the dangerous thing that some people would lead us to believe, actually quite good for us, high in fiber, contains polyphenols, um, and people who consume more fruit are less likely to have diabetes, not more likely to have diabetes.

Fermented food. There’s a new science that’s emerged. Actually, Stanford University, there was a great study that was done by some of my friends. And basically what was exciting is they found that people who added fermented food to their diet, eight weeks later, they increased the diversity within their gut microbiome.

That’s really cool. All right. G stands for greens and whole grains. So greens, I mean, basically this is like tons of nutrition, almost no calories. And so it’s like taking a multivitamin, except it’s a food. Um, whole grains, whole grains are quite, uh, conceptually similar to legumes. So beans, and that’s because they’re high in fiber and resistant starches and polyphenols, all of which are prebiotic and feed our microbiome.

So now with these things, by the way, I should mention like whole grains, I recommend buying organic because in many cases the whole grains are being sprayed with glyphosate in order to dry them out and they don’t have to be like genetically modified in order to do that. Um, so, um, O stands for omega three super seeds.

So we need more omega threes in our diet. Omega threes are healthy fats, um, and the seeds that contain them and also contain fiber are chia, flax, and hemp. You also find them in walnuts. Um, a stands for aromatics. So this is like basically the flavor foods. So garlic, onions, shallots, things like this, um, amazing for preventing cancer and heart disease.

L stands for legumes. I already mentioned them. Great for the microbiome, like to me microbiome superfood, also dirt cheap. Uh, when people say that eating like more plants is too expensive, this is my response. Beans are dirt cheap. Um, and then finally S I kind of like had a lot that I wanted to say I was not ready to quit.

So I have three that I packed into S and that includes shrooms. So many mushrooms, not, not recreational shrooms. Um, so mushrooms, they’re, they’re technically not plants, but I make them honorary plants because they have many plant based nutrients, which is kind of interesting. Like they have fiber, um, even though they’re not plants.

Uh, next is seaweed or sea vegetables. Um, so they are a bit different than all these other things that I’m mentioning. Again, I don’t eat this on a daily basis, but like having this in the pantry and perhaps like snacking on some seaweed or incorporating it into a soup, it can be a great idea. And then last is, uh, sprouts.

So in the book I said sulforaphane, which is the phytochemical that fights cancer that you will find in things like broccoli sprouts. Thanks. But actually sprouts to me are just like this amazing thing that we should all be consuming because basically they’re inexpensive. You can easily make them organic, still not expensive.

And in just a matter of days, you can take what is a small amount, like a quick example is lentils. You start with a half of a cup of lentils and in two or three days you have four cups of lentil sprouts and they’re delicious.

[01:03:10] Gabby: And I think it’s just that reminder people, you, you do talk about the importance of fiber resistant starch and polyphenols.

That is, those are big ones. Now you’ll hear people are, we’re all getting food allergy tests. I have friends that are like, I’m allergic to garlic and you just go, Oh my gosh. Um, and sometimes I think that keeps people. Cause then it’s, it’s sort of like, wait a second, I can’t eat anything. I’m allergic to everything.

So how would you best approach this? One finding out about, you know, what foods. are agreeable to you and maybe how to either, you know, test for that or temporary eliminate and then slowly bring back in. How, how do you approach that? Because I think this is a big one for people.

[01:04:01] Will Bulsciewicz: Yeah. My, my advice is a bit counterculture, I think.

Um, which is that, you know, we have been kind of hearing for many years now that the solution to these types of issues is to restrict our diet. And instead, what I actually am advocating for is that people, um, add more variety to their diet because variety becomes the key to the microbiome. And it’s something that’s gone missing in the modern world because our supermarket is trying to convince us to basically consume soy and wheat and corn.

And that’s it. So those are like 75 percent of the calories in your supermarket come from those three plants. So abundance is the key. And the reason why is because every single plant has its own unique blend of fiber and polyphenols that basically feed these gut bacteria and they’re picky eaters. They don’t all want kale.

And so when we add variety to our diet, we are feeding a wider variety of bacteria. And when we feed a wider variety of bacteria, we are adding to the diversity of our gut ecosystem. And a diverse gut ecosystem is a resilient, strong, healthy, Empowered ecosystem. All right. So with that context in place, like basically I want people to hear this, add more plants, right?

Stop counting grams of fiber, stop counting calories, add more plants, start counting plants in your diet with that context established. Um, so if you have, if you truly have a food allergy, then there should be evidence of a reaction to this. And most of the time, although it can be possible to just have gut symptoms, most of the time there’s more than just gut symptoms.

Usually people are also developing hives, skin reactions, swelling of the lips. So typically there’s other reactions that indicate that your body is activating, your immune system is activating in response to the food. We think about this with like peanuts, right? Like we can’t have peanuts on the airplane because they’re too dangerous for people that have severe allergic reactions.

And there are these specific foods, uh, specific foods that are associated with the vast majority of allergies that exist. So and that includes dairy products, eggs, fish and shellfish, peanuts, tree nuts, soy, corn, sesame seeds. I think I covered it. I think I covered it. Um, what’s interesting about those, Gabby.

If you think about ones I just mentioned, soy, corn, peanuts, tree nuts, this is the stuff that we have sliced and diced and perverted in our ultra processed foods. And then we’re surprised that our immune system is confused because it doesn’t know what’s what or what’s the problem. Garlic is not one of these classics.

Is it possible to be allergic to garlic? Sure, it’s possible to be allergic to anything. An allergy is when the immune system responds to protein. But many people will get a reaction to garlic that’s exclusively gut symptoms, typically with some bloating. And this is a food intolerance. It’s not an allergy.

And it’s typically in response to the garlic contains something called fructans. Fructans are one of the FODMAPs. FODMAPs are basically these types of foods that are highly fermentable, more likely to cause gas and bloating. Um, so when this happens, it’s not that you’re allergic to the garlic. It’s that you have a sensitivity to it.

to the fructans that are in the garlic and you can train your gut to be able to handle those fructans. in the same way that you can train your muscles to be strong. So I like to think about the gut as like being a muscle. That muscle can be trained, it can be made stronger, and the way that we do that is by challenging it and through repetition.

So in the same way that we can go to the gym and build up strength by working out, we can do the same with our gut by simply challenging it with food. So what would I do with that particular person? Assuming it’s not actually a food allergy. I would actually have them introduce the garlic, but in small amounts, very small amounts.

And I would do it in an amount that they can tolerate. And then once I know they can tolerate it, I would do that for a little bit, a period of time. And then I would increase it and I would slowly increase it. So I have the saying low and slow is the tempo, which by the way is a Beastie Boys song from I think 1986.

So, but low and slow is the tempo. You start with just a small amount and then you can slowly increase over time as your gut muscle grows stronger.

[01:08:51] Gabby: And I think people don’t realize that the gut, like you stated earlier, it really starts to regenerate pretty quickly. Starts to shift and change so quickly.

[01:09:03] Will Bulsciewicz: Yeah. We have evidence that less than 24 hours after you eat a meal, the gut has already started to change. I mean, this is not an overhaul. Overhauls take time, but the choices that you make today will start to impact your gut by tomorrow.

[01:09:16] Gabby: You know, a lot of people get the diagnosis of like a, of SIBO or it’s, it’s, it gets, I feel like it gets thrown around a lot.

[01:09:23] Will Bulsciewicz: Yeah.

[01:09:24] Gabby: Uh, do you, so if somebody goes and they, and they get diagnosed, oh, they have sibo, um, what do, what do you usually find with that? Because I know you do get a lot, you, or you had been getting a lot of patients that hurt all kinds of things. What do you, what do you find. More often than not.

[01:09:45] Will Bulsciewicz: So the scary thing from my perspective with this particular diagnosis is that it’s become sort of popular.

[01:09:51] Gabby: Yeah.

[01:09:51] Will Bulsciewicz: It’s like a, it’s like a trendy diagnosis to make.

[01:09:54] Gabby: It’s like everyone’s saying they have anxiety now. It’s like.

[01:09:57] Will Bulsciewicz: Yeah. That’s true. And actually, to be honest with you, um, like that, that kind of stuff, like mood disorders, um, there are criteria and, and the people who meet those criteria, they have a very serious health issue.

So it’s not like a casual thing, but anyway, with, um, with SIBO, so SIBO stands for small intestine bacterial overgrowth. Basically, the suggestion is that bacteria are not supposed to be in the small intestine. And when they are there and they start growing out of control, then they can start to cause symptoms and people typically will experience gas bloating and a change in bowel habits.

So and that could be diarrhea or constipation. What’s happening is that people who have gas and bloating, that by itself, without any additional testing, without considering other diagnoses. People are being told you have SIBO and then there’s this knee jerk reaction. It’s like one of these things where it’s like a root cause analysis, Gabby, because once you make that diagnosis, it’s going to set off a cascade of events that actually.

From my perspective, if you’re wrong, if this is the wrong diagnosis, from that point forward, you are inflicting harm on this patient. And that’s the reason why I speak up and push back against the idea of everyone being diagnosed with SIBO. The reason why it’s dangerous is because the treatment for SIBO is antibiotics.

So you take a person who has a damaged gut, and the reason they have a damaged gut could be a number of different things, but that includes, by the way, Exposure to antibiotics.

[01:11:39] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[01:11:40] Will Bulsciewicz: And you take that person and then you subject them to antibiotics and you actually make this problem worse. You are actually medically inducing dysbiosis, which is a damaged, disturbed microbiome.

Um, in a person who like, this is the person we need to rebuild, not break down. So how do we approach this? The answer to the question, Gabby, if I were to like try to simplify as much as I can, number one, are you constipated? If the answer is yes, stop with the SIBO diagnosis, focus on treating the constipation.

If you treat the constipation and you get yourself pooping, your bloating will go away. I promise you. I promise you. Now constipation can be nuanced and complex to treat. Um, so just be aware, like it’s not always so simple as just increasing your fiber and drinking more water. It’s not always so simple as just taking the medication.

So there’s different forms of constipation. You need a good gastroenterologist to work on that. If you have diarrhea, you’ve been told you have SIBO. Before we accept that diagnosis, let’s make sure that there’s not something else going on here. What if you have celiac disease? I can’t tell you how many people have diagnosed with celiac disease within this setting that they were told they have SIBO.

And it’s like, no, no, This was celiac. And when you cut out gluten, the whole problem goes away. Or what if you have a food intolerance such as sucrose intolerance? These are people that get diarrhea and bloating because of sucrose, which is table sugar, which is in everything. And that is actually easily diagnosed with a breath, breath test.

And if you can diagnose that, then actually there’s an enzyme that a person could take. And that corrects the issue. And next thing you know, like this whole SIBO question is gone. So I think the point from my perspective is, let’s not be quick to take antibiotics. Anytime we’re being asked to take antibiotics, let’s pump the brakes.

Let’s ask the question, what are my options? Do I really need these antibiotics? What happens if I don’t take the antibiotics now? And just look at your choices.

[01:13:36] Gabby: What other tests do you like to give people at least a decent snapshot of what’s going on? I know all of this is very individual and nuanced, um, but are there tests that you sort of go, Hey, these are good starting points.

[01:13:54] Will Bulsciewicz: Well, we could start with the free stuff, so you can look at your poop. I mean, it’s, you know, we, yeah, let’s talk,

[01:14:05] Gabby: you know, it’s funny. Do you know who Paul Czech is?

[01:14:08] Will Bulsciewicz: I know that name. Who’s that?

[01:14:13] Gabby: Paul Czech is way ahead of his time in so many things. He, um, he, I would, I don’t even know what to categorize him because he sort of, Discusses. I mean, listen, he could give you a full evaluation, but then say, because you’re an emotional person, I’m not going to overtrain your legs because your lower chakras are already overtaxed.

But he’s, you know, he used to, when I really first met him over 20 years ago, if it was a, if it was a, you know, a hoof day, he would only protein and like the cleanest kind, the same if it was a fish day, he only, you know, it’s like, The enzymes that he’s using for that day to break down his food. It was like, Paul is a serious, um, and really interesting guy, but he always was talking about poop and after a while you’re like, okay, Paul, but he’d be like at least 12 inches a day.

I don’t care if it’s twice, six inches one time, but he, but it was like, we don’t ever think about elimination as really being a good place to go to start. But then when you say that, it’s like. Is it, if it smells stronger, is that an issue if it’s like, what, what is a perfect elimination in your mind?

[01:15:25] Will Bulsciewicz: Yeah.

Well, so first of all, a perfect elimination to me, like I, I have to sort of use words to describe cause it’s not just the way it looks to me, a perfect elimination is a complete Effortless, satisfying bowel movement. All right. So a lot of that is how you feel. You should feel good. You should feel good.

Bowel movements are satisfying. You shouldn’t have to walk out of the restroom and be like, I’m not sure if I really emptied my bottom. I think I might have to go again in like 45 minutes or 30 minutes. Right. You shouldn’t have to be like, Oh man, I was straining and pushing and fighting in there to get that baby out.

Like that’s that that to me is not where we’re supposed to be. And then how does the poop look? So the reason why how the poop looks becomes very important is because actually this is a window into our gut microbiome. So if you, and I hope like you’re here after all this time of us talking, you must, in some level of believe in what I’m saying on the gut microbiome and, um, our gut microbiome defines what our bowel movements look like.

And the ideal bowel movement is sausage shaped. Soft but formed and when it starts to get cracks and hard, we are drifting towards constipation and when it starts to turn into a cow pie, meaning it’s not, it’s not formed and it’s a plop, we’re drifting towards diarrhea and all of these changes as we drift in those directions are associated with changes to the gut microbiome and not necessarily changes that you want.

So to me, this is like the easy place to start is like, what’s happening in the bathroom? What does it look like? How do you feel? Was it a complete evacuation? There are people who poop every day and they’re constipated and they don’t realize it. And what Paul said, I find highly compelling and interesting because he’s not a gastroenterologist.

So he’s not sitting around thinking about poop all day the way that I do, but actually he’s a hundred percent right. Because like this description of like 12 inches could be two six inchers. Like I actually think that there’s something to that because some people they’re not having complete evacuations.

Right? So they go five times a day and they think, I’m not constipated, but the five times a day, every single one of them is like a little nugget and they’re fighting to get it out. Right? So anyway, so from my perspective, if you want to assess a person’s gut health, you start with this, you start with symptoms, like do they have gut symptoms?

Can they, do they get bloating and other digestive issues routinely, like on a, on a, on a chronic basis when they consume food? Um, now occasional symptoms, we all get them, but chronic issue, chronic symptoms where it’s affecting your quality of life, we’ve crossed the line. And then the third thing that I look at, again, all this is free is I look at their health history.

Now you alluded to this actually earlier in the show, which is that our gut is connected to so much, not just our digestion, but also our hormones and our metabolism and our immune system and our mood and our brain health. And so in my clinic, uh, I would see patients that you take a look at their past medical history and you go, okay, here it is.

They’re here to see me with irritable bowel syndrome, but they also have a history of high cholesterol type two diabetes. They’re overweight. Um, they, uh, have autoimmune disease and allergic disease. Um, and they also are depressed and they get migraine headaches. All right. Every single one of the things that I just, uh, Mentions is a consequence of damage to the gut microbiome of dysbiosis.

So there’s this one root thing that ties them all together. We don’t need a test to prove this. We already know. Now, that being said, transitioning into the question of testing, because I get it. People want to do tests. I do too.

[01:19:29] Gabby: You

[01:19:30] Will Bulsciewicz: do? Yeah, I do. But I like them. I like them more when they’re valid, meaning that they actually have done studies to prove that they work.

Okay. And I think this is an important thing when we’re talking about the microbiome, because this is an exciting space and, um, consumers are, uh, in a vulnerable position because they say, I want a microbiome test and most of the ones they should, most of the ones that exist in the market today, they can’t answer this question.

This is the question that you should ask them. What research do you have to prove that by using your test? Or using your product, I can improve my health.

[01:20:12] Speaker 3: And

[01:20:14] Will Bulsciewicz: if they can’t answer that question, which I promise you, it’s at least 95 percent that can’t. I mean, I don’t even know how many are out there, but there’s very few that have done the appropriate things to answer that question.

Then what you have is like, it’s a test. Like that, that you’re the guinea pig. Cause we don’t even know. So what’s, what’s the point of that? So this is where, um, I’m proud of the work that we’re doing at Zoe, where I’m the U S medical director and, um, we, Zoe is a personalized nutrition company. And part of what we do is we test a person’s gut microbiome and we give them a report that breaks down the different types of bacteria that they have in their gut.

the good ones and the bad ones. And these are good ones and bad ones that we have validated and published in major medical journals. But what’s more is that this, um, this task is associated with a program and the program teaches you how to eat for your own unique biology in a way that empowers your health.

And we just published recently, The results from a randomized control trial that we did using our product and demonstrating that it’s kind of cool, Gabby, people who use our product, they lose weight, they shave inches off their waist circumference, they lower their triglyceride levels, meaning their blood fat levels, they lower their hemoglobin A1c, and then, like, there’s this thing that many doctors dismiss, but I think is really important, how do you feel?

That to me is a basic question that we should be able to ask each other if we care. And the people who were following the Zoe program, they had more energy, they had better mood, they were sleeping better. And then here’s the one that I think is very fascinating because they again were losing weight, more weight.

And shaving inches off their waist circumference, yet they had less hunger.

[01:22:21] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[01:22:21] Will Bulsciewicz: Cause they’re eating the right food. So, and, and just real quick, the people who really followed the program most rigorously got even better results. So it’s a, it’s a really cool and exciting time. Cause we just published this in nature medicine.

[01:22:34] Gabby: Well, you, you talk a lot in this program about You know, there’s, there’s probably some universal laws for all of us, but really we’re all different and it, we could even be different at different times. This kind of idea of customized nutrition, um, and, and, and sort of approaching it that way. Now, I know you have a, a supplement, a powder, um, is it in stock right now?

[01:23:03] Will Bulsciewicz: So that’s an interesting story. So I, I launched a company. This is completely separate from my work at Zoe. I launched a company called 38 Terra, um, 38 T E R A and we have a prebiotic supplement. This is basically the prebiotic supplement I always wished that I could have for my patients in the clinic.

And the demand far outpaced the supply that we had.

[01:23:26] Gabby: Yeah.

[01:23:27] Will Bulsciewicz: So we are releasing it on a monthly basis in batches and it’s first come first serve, um, in limited quantities and we’ve sold out like very quickly. Each time that we’ve done this, but we’re finally coming to a place where we think in the next, um, next few weeks, like not imminently, but in the next few weeks, we’re going to be able to announce our full opening so that people can get access without having to worry about the whole, are you open or not open?

When can I get it? So it’s an exciting time.

[01:23:58] Gabby: Yeah, so I, I saw that, but I’m, I’m curious because, you know, food is, is king. And then, Hey, can we do these other types of things to kind of give us that extra support? Um, you know, and I, I just like to remind people of that. Um, but the, I want, I’m also wanted them to know, um, about the Tara 38 because it, it does have some really incredible ingredients in it.

And just as a tool, um, you know, for them to, to be aware that it exists and that they can get access to it.

[01:24:34] Will Bulsciewicz: I’m very, I’m very proud of it. And I’m also like particularly proud cause I’m a medical doctor. So what I care about is when people get benefits.

[01:24:43] Gabby: Yeah.

[01:24:43] Will Bulsciewicz: Um, and the thing about it, just zooming out, not being specific to 38 Tara, but just kind of zooming out for a quick moment.

Cause people wonder like, so you’ve been talking about food, like, you know, between you and I, like we advocate for. Whole food.

[01:24:59] Speaker 3: Mm hmm.

[01:25:00] Will Bulsciewicz: And, um, so then how can you possibly advocate for supplements? And the answer to that question is actually quite straightforward and simple. I am an outcomes driven person.

At the end of the day, what I care about. Is like getting people to their goals and then exceeding that. And so, and the way that I approach that is not by weaning into one thing and one thing only, I think we’re wrong when we make a choice to say, it can only be this and never that instead in that moment, what are the tools, what are the things that we can use to our advantage to accomplish our goals and exceed our goals?

It starts with food. Diet is our foundation. We add lifestyle to our diet. These are the same things that you and I advocate for. The role of supplements is that we can fill the gaps that we aren’t able to achieve with our diet or exceed. What we’re capable of doing with our diet supplements are not the same as food.

It’s not a replacement for food. So what we do is we do diet to the best of our ability. And then we layer in the supplements to achieve an even higher level than what we’re capable of. And the last thing is that medicine, like, I don’t want to leave the, leave the impression that people should feel bad if they need medicine.

You should not, if you need medicine, you need medicine. What I take issue with. Is building a health care system that says that medicine is the first solution and the last solution to your problems and we shouldn’t even consider all these other things. That’s wrong.

[01:26:32] Gabby: Well, it’s insane. I mean, it’s, I, I, I think it’s, and it’s interesting to me that some, a lot of people will, will take a pill quicker than they would take a supplement.

Like they’re more comfortable. I w you know what I mean? I think it’s, it’s like Omega three. Well, I don’t know. You know, and it’s, it’s, it’s just that part of always, I found fascinating.

[01:26:54] Will Bulsciewicz: There’s all these people on the internet, Gabby, and there’s different pockets and groups of people that have different ideologies and you know what they’re going to say before they even say it, because they’re quite consistent in their positions and whatever data comes forward, they won’t move their position because they’re just so firmly entrenched.

Um, but to me, it’s, it’s silly. It’s silly because at the end of the day, we should be doing the things that are going to help people get to a better place without putting in these specific rules that like, Oh, you can’t do that. That’s ridiculous.

[01:27:25] Gabby: Right. That’s right. What are the three, you talk a lot about the kind of things that people food sensitivity, um, there’s sort of some, there’s sort of, there’s sort of some real basic three that show up for a lot of people.

[01:27:43] Will Bulsciewicz: Um, well, there, there are many different food, uh, sensitivities or intolerances that exist. Most of them actually are the result of damage to our gut microbiome. And when we overcome that damage to the microbiome, actually you can restore functions to your gut. So that’s an exciting and beautiful thing because the food that you have, um, taken off the menu, we can bring back.

[01:28:08] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[01:28:09] Will Bulsciewicz: And abundance and variety is delicious. So, um, common food sensitivities or intolerances, it’s quite common for people to have lactose intolerance. That’s, that’s intolerance to dairy products. It’s quite common for people to have sensitivity to beans. because beans contain, uh, Galactans and Galactans are a FODMAP.

And then we mentioned garlic earlier and I would expand that to include some whole grains people may struggle with. And it’s kind of an interesting thing that, um, there was a study among people that had gluten intolerance and they, uh, fed them three breakfast bars. And these three breakfast bars either were a placebo, Just the breakfast bar, nothing else or a breakfast bar plus gluten or a breakfast breakfast bar plus fructans, which are the things that you will find in whole grains and also in garlic and onions.

And, um, and by the way, I should mention fructans are really good for us. They’re prebiotic. So they’re not bad. It’s just that if you consume too much of them and you have a sensitive gut, then it can seem like they’re bad. So anyway, in this study, these people that had, you know, Diagnosed with gluten intolerance.

It turned out that the gluten containing bar actually caused less symptoms than the placebo. It had more symptoms with the placebo than the gluten. And those, uh, who then consumed the fructan containing bar, they were triggered. So we, I think we have mislabeled many of the people who we call gluten intolerance.

If you think you have an issue with gluten, you need to be tested for celiac disease. That is step one. We need to know for sure. But, um, if you don’t have celiac disease. It’s actually possible that it’s a fructan intolerance. And so if you take that person, for example, Gabby, and you give them sourdough bread, like authentically fermented sourdough, the bacteria will actually consume a lot of the fructans.

And as a result, these people can actually tolerate this. So it’s, and it’s quite delicious as well, which is a nice thing.

[01:30:26] Gabby: I, people don’t realize like sourdough done correctly has a lot of positive, uh, like you said, bacterias in it. What, what is it, uh, forgive me if I get it wrong, um, Actizan?

[01:30:41] Will Bulsciewicz: Actizan?

[01:30:42] Gabby: Yeah.

[01:30:43] Will Bulsciewicz: So ectozin is one of the ingredients in, in 38 Terra. Um, so there’s, uh, seven plant based ingredients and they were selected because like part of this is, it’s not just a fiber supplement. It also has resistant starches and polyphenols. And the reason why it includes all three of these things is because we basically want a complete prebiotic that feeds the microbiome.

These are the three different types of prebiotics. Thanks. Polyphenols, resistant starches, and fiber. Actazine is dried kiwi fruit powder. So it’s a green kiwi. It comes from New Zealand. Um, and in, in human clinical studies, this particular ingredient has been shown to help people regulate their bowel movements, improve gut symptoms, increase the number of fecal bacterium, which is a specific type of bacteria in their gut.

Um, and Actazine is kind of unique because Kiwis. So kiwis are good for us. Like this is, by the way, I want to be clear. This is not a replacement for kiwis in your diet. You should eat kiwis, but this on a daily basis is quite easy to take. Eating kiwis on a daily basis is not that easy. And, um, it has many of the same properties that the Kiwis do, which is it has the fiber that the Kiwis do.

It has polyphenols that the Kiwis do, and it even has digestive enzymes that the Kiwis do. And so it’s kind of a fascinating, fascinating little ingredient.

[01:32:07] Gabby: Do you, how do you feel, you know, like when I was a kid, my mother would sometimes give me papaya little tablets, like as a digestive enzyme. I mean, I, you know, who knows, do you, how do you feel about, um, you know, Maybe doing a bitters or something, some kind of digestive enzyme.

How do you feel about that practice?

[01:32:30] Will Bulsciewicz: So digestive enzyme supplements?

[01:32:32] Gabby: Yeah. Like, do you, do you have people where you go, Oh, this works for them or, Hey, that’s only for a time and a place. Take, you know, not, not something with a regular practice. How do you feel about them?

[01:32:43] Will Bulsciewicz: So some of our foods already contained digestive enzymes.

So that’s a cool thing. So you mentioned papaya, you could add a pineapple to the mix. And I just mentioned Kiwi. Kiwi a moment ago. All right. Um, so something that people need to be aware of, there are different types of digestive enzymes. There are ones that are prescription only, and they are a, um, uh, replacement for mammalian digestive enzymes from your pancreas.

And they’re intended for people that have inadequate pancreatic function in those people. This can be life changing, but those digestive enzymes are expensive. They’re very expensive and you have to use them consistently with every meal. That’s a different thing. We’re going to put that to the side because that is not available to people unless they go to their medical doctor and they have that specific issue.

All right. Um, the, the types of digestive enzymes that you have available over the counter, these are typically plant based digestive enzymes. The problem or the challenge that we have is that each formulation is a little bit different and we don’t have studies to prove which formulation works or works the best.

So what I come back to is this are they likely to cause harm? No, except it’s your wallet, right? But One of the things that can be what like rather empowering I think about gut health Or people that have chronic digestive issues because by the way, you would not do this if you have no symptoms So anyone who would consider doing this they have symptoms if you were to add this You assess whether or not it improves those symptoms.

And if you get the bang for your buck that makes you happy, if you think it’s worth it, I think that’s okay. Like, I’m on board with that. Alright, but, this, by the way, this concept that I’m teaching right now of, like, almost, you could call it an end of one study, like, study yourself and how you respond, right?

You can apply this to many other things, including probiotics. Because like probiotics, it doesn’t matter if there’s a clinical trial, it doesn’t matter because if you take it and it doesn’t change anything, what’s the point? So for people that have chronic, chronic digestive symptoms, when you introduce something, introduce it, assess the response, see if it improves your symptoms, and then make a decision about whether or not it’s worth it.

[01:35:13] Gabby: What about buchi kombucha? I know. I mean, obviously the, the, the, the kind of party starts with a bit of sugar, but how do you, uh, do you, do you, You know, again, given case by case, um, do you, is, do you think it can be something that people enjoy and it, it, it’s not, it has some benefits?

[01:35:37] Will Bulsciewicz: Yes, I do. Um, the, I think that we have to though, like the answer is not everyone should drink all like kombucha all day long.

So, um, I think it’s in moderation and we have to be conscious of the fact that this is highly acidic and that acid can definitely have negative effects on our teeth. So eroding, eroding the enamel in our teeth, contributing to gingivitis. What I always do is I always dilute it. So I, I, you’ll never see me take a bottle of kombucha and fill the cup up all the way.

I fill it up anywhere from a third to half, and then I round it out with water. It still tastes great. Kombucha is a living food. Um, fermented food is to our benefit. This is not the absolute best fermented food on the totem pole. This is closer to the bottom of the totem pole. We can clearly do better.

That being said. Are we better off drinking kombucha or drinking diet Coke? Give me the kombucha all day long.

[01:36:37] Gabby: Yeah. Do you like, you like nato or thing are, are you a na? Do you eat nato?

[01:36:45] Will Bulsciewicz: I don’t eat nato. It scares me. Oh, I have one

[01:36:49] Gabby: of my, well see, we live in, my husband’s from Hawaii, so one of my daughters.

Uh, we have a very dear friend who’s Hawaiian and her husband is Japanese and he had, they always have natto and my kid was raised on it and they go, they can do it.

[01:37:03] Will Bulsciewicz: Okay. That’s amazing. And that’s, and I think that that’s a testament to us normalizing, right? Like we were talking about parenting

[01:37:10] Speaker 3: and I

[01:37:10] Will Bulsciewicz: think that normalizing things is actually quite important because when it’s the normal, then like you don’t even think twice about it.

Right. This is just the way that we are. So not so for those who don’t know, it’s got a funky smell. Um, it’s kind of stringy and, and sticky. Um, so it can be a bit nasty. Um, but it’s also extremely healthy and it has this thing called natto kinase. Yeah. That like, for example, Um, the pharmaceutical industry wishes that they could bottle this up and, uh, to my knowledge, they haven’t figured out a way to do that, but we think it’s highly protective against cardiovascular disease.

So and I think that natto is just one example though, Gabby, of how the Japanese diet, um, there are definitely people who have drifted away from their traditional diet. And towards a Western diet, like sadly, our culture is how we conduct war on other countries because we like basically export American culture and American food to them.

And then we kind of ruin them. Um, so there are definitely people who have given up on this, but the traditional Japanese diet includes a lot of fermented food. Miso is one that we can all get on board with and it’s quite delicious. And it’s so easy because all you need is you need a can of miso and some hot water.

That’s it.

[01:38:21] Gabby: Yeah. So there’s a lot of, I just remind people, cause there’s a lot of diverse and easy ways to do it. Do you, um, I don’t as much, I wish I did more, but Laird does quite a lot of Shilajit. Um, I was wondering if you had feelings about the benefits, uh, is there benefits to the gut on Shilajit? And I’m just asking out of curiosity.

I know there’s It’s sort of nutritional benefits, but

[01:38:50] Will Bulsciewicz: yeah, I haven’t seen anything. Okay. I haven’t seen anything. So, but like to me, if you, you know, if you want to assess whether something is good for the gut, there’s some basic principles. The basic principles are, does it have polyphenols? Does it have fiber?

Does it have resistant starches? Does it have living microbes? Does it have healthy fats? And if the answer is yes, then that’s like, we’re, we’re weighing the scale in the direction that we want. Okay. And if it’s, Hey, does it have like sugar and, you know, uh, uh, refined carbohydrates like even flour, that’s the opposite side of the scale.

[01:39:29] Gabby: So I have to ask this because a lot of times you’ll, you know, again, having these conversations and there’s so much information out there and people, they get confused. So a lot of people eat meat and I think it’s. It would be safe to say that when they do studies, a lot of times if someone is a vegetarian or a vegan, they are more conscious about what they’re eating because you could have a study with somebody who’s eating fast food and they’re, they’re part of the meat category.

And then you have this group that there’s just a consciousness that comes by having a practice of being plant based. You’re just, you’re more so within that you’re already kind of healthier. I would, I, I just will say, so like, for example, we eat meat, but I order it. I get my, you know, Maui Newy. I, you know, if somebody hunts things like that, if someone’s listening to this and they go, Hey, listen, I, in my life, um, I’m incorporating meat.

And, uh, I think who said it, uh, Michael Pollan said it best, like, uh, eat whole foods, mostly plants. I thought that was a very beautiful way of, of kind of. Kind of simply stating it. Are there, when you have a patient that is also incorporating eating animal protein, do you change some of your suggestions?

Do you, you know, how, how do you approach that?

[01:40:54] Will Bulsciewicz: So, uh, Let me, I guess, um, define with more clarity the way that I approach these issues, which is that I, as I mentioned earlier, I’m an outcomes driven person, right? So that’s what I care about. Um, and I want people to eat a diet that’s delicious and also sustainable for them.

There is no one size fits all diet. All right. And actually you, you were mentioning that like, um, in epidemiology studies, typically people who eat plant based And when you have a lot of them, you can get a lot of those. So you can get a lot of the ones that are more unusual. Um, so I’m going to be doing a lot of videos on the different types of transcripts for you guys.

I’m going to be doing a lot of videos on different subjects. So I’m going to be talking about as much about as I can because I’m not going to be talking about all of them.

And it’s, it’s because they’re eating junk food vegan.

[01:41:45] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[01:41:46] Will Bulsciewicz: So it’s these labels I get, to be honest with you, Gabby, I’m kind of over them, these labels. Like there are many, this, this tent that I want to create, right? If we were having a big old party, this tent would include a lot of people. And you don’t have to define yourself as whatever this label is.

What I want is I want to meet people where they are, wherever they are. I would do the exact same thing with a patient. I want to meet you where you are and I want to nudge you in a direction that improves your health. More fiber is not the solution for every single person listening to us right now, but 95 percent of Americans are deficient in fiber.

And this is the reason why I’ve taken up this banner and impounding pounding this drum because I’m a public health level. This is my great opportunity to make a difference in people’s lives is if I can quite simply just get them to fill in more fiber in their diet. You don’t have to define yourself as vegetarian or pescetarian or vegan or even paleo or keto or these other things.

You have your own diet. I want you to love it. And I also want it to be a more healthful diet. We want to elevate the quality and one of the strategies for elevating the quality is quite simply sneaking more plants. Gabby, I mentioned earlier, for us as adults, 60% of our calories come from ultra processed foods.

For our kids, it’s 70%. Imagine a world where we just quite simply replace that.

[01:43:21] Gabby: I know lad, first of all, Dr. BI really appreciate that because I, I personally think we have enough tribalism, in the world. I’m tired of it too, and I too much. I just feel, you know, we, we valeto, he’s like, oh, where am I from? Or what am I, he’s like, I’m a human, you know, from earth.

And you know, I feel like. I was talking to another friend of mine, Keith Pines, he works on athletes and he talks about like our DNA, you know, being light and how we’re kind of really all the same, ultimately in that way, um, not the way that our systems work, but that, you know, bringing that kind of oneness back to these conversations.

Um, but there’s always like, you know, plants and animals, plants and animals, like this idea of. Real and whole, um, and starting there and then however you need to do it from that point. I, I personally always honor, um, whatever people feel most comfortable with. So I really appreciate that because we need less of that separation and more of that, uh, together and, and really actually trying to change the way the food system is for all of us.

You know, that maybe is the bigger thing us as parents and us as people, it’s like really trying to force them, um, to make some of these improvements. Because like you said, I think people, it works against them and they don’t get that runway to make better choices. And, um, It’s hard on them. So in, in closing up, and I could go on and on.

I know we talked about some of the research with cancer. I was just curious if there’s anything kind of on the horizon or something that you’re seeing or practice that you’re working on? Really excited about because it does feel like this field, since these new innovations in 2006 and seven really is moving a lot quicker.

[01:45:19] Will Bulsciewicz: It is, yeah. No, it’s picking up steam. Um, I, I want to come back to, so I mentioned Zoe, uh, as a microbiome test and I mentioned our randomized control trial. What I didn’t mention is that I think that we are, uh, blessed with the most powerful research database that exists on the planet right now. I’m not being, uh, hyperbolic when I say that.

So if, um, if we wait for our government to do these things for us, we’re gonna be waiting a long time. They’re just not. We have to empower it. We have to make the decision that we want it. Zoe comes from a community of people who want to be healthier. That’s how it starts and we run what I would describe as community driven science.

Each person who participates in ZOE, they do a microbiome test, they work a continuous glucose monitor, they do a blood lipid test, blood fat test, um, and they enter their information including their health history and what they’re eating into an app. And they’re contributing to science and they help us make other people healthier because of their contribution.

This goes into a database where now we have like on the order of 200, 000 people where we have their microbiome, their, their, their blood sugar response to specific foods, their health history. And we can use, think about AI, how this is changing the game and apply that. Right? Apply that to a database that has all of this information.

And what I’m excited about, Gabby, is that I sincerely believe that at ZOE I think we’re just getting started. Because as this database grows, it empowers us to help people even more than we currently are. And one of the spaces that we’re getting into, because it’s important, is women’s health. Menopause has been overlooked and ignored for far too long.

It’s time for us to focus on women, their health, their happiness, as they make this hormonal transition into menopause. And we are discovering ways in which we can help women to do that. And this is the result of the fact that we have the database and the result of the fact that our community is what drives us to do what we do.

So when they say to us, this is what we want, we say, we’re doing it. And so I’m proud of that. I think it’s really cool.

[01:47:44] Gabby: Yeah. So people can get an idea of, uh, you know, how much fiber. So let’s say the recommended, what’d you say for men? It’s 38 and for women it’s 20. Is that what you said? Yeah. 25. So what does that look like?

Like in real food?

[01:48:06] Will Bulsciewicz: Um, that’s a great question. Like how much fiber in

[01:48:10] Gabby: a, in a normal size, not a monster size, not a little tiny peanut dinner plate, just a normal solid with. Um, and you know, some veggies.

[01:48:18] Will Bulsciewicz: All right. So let me, I hope you don’t mind, but I actually would say, here’s the problem. This is part of the problem, honestly, is that I think that when I have this conversation, people in their minds instantly hear salad.

[01:48:32] Gabby: Well, let’s, let’s, let’s take, well, okay, let’s get crazy. So if a baked potato that you, is this true? If you bake it and you cool it and you eat it, the resistant starch right in there is quite good for your microbiome.

[01:48:44] Will Bulsciewicz: A hundred percent. Yeah, you are, they call it retro, retroactive starch,

[01:48:49] Gabby: right?

[01:48:49] Will Bulsciewicz: Um, you are creating resistant starch.

That’s good for your microbiome. And you can continue to do this twice baked potatoes, thrice baked potatoes. Um, let’s think about some of these foods. So, because people just quite simply are not eating beans, for example. And if we just, if you’re making chili, right, or you’re making soup, it’s not a question whether you should put beans in your soup.

Which ones? It’s just which ones.

[01:49:13] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[01:49:13] Will Bulsciewicz: And I’d advocate for like, I like the ones that are like, Hey, we have five different beans in this one can. Boom. That’s what I’m going with. Right. Because that’s the variety that I’m advocating for. So, um, the amount of fiber that you’ll find in a cup of beans is off the charts, more than 10 grams.

Right. Okay.

[01:49:31] Speaker 3: Come on. All

[01:49:31] Will Bulsciewicz: right. So yeah, so a person could be like taking their current diet and nearly double it by just adding some beans to their diet once a day. How about an avocado? We all love it. Like I have never, unless you’re allergic, I have not met. I don’t think anyone who doesn’t like avocados, I’m sure someone listening will hear this and say that I don’t like them, but almost everyone loves it.

Avocados have fiber. They have tons of fiber. You can have like a medium sized avocado could have more than 10 grams of fiber. You do half of the avocado. You got five.

[01:50:01] Gabby: What are we doing? It’s not hard.

[01:50:04] Will Bulsciewicz: No, it’s not.

[01:50:05] Gabby: I mean, what are we, how many, how many, where do you think you’re at in a day? 150

[01:50:13] Will Bulsciewicz: No, I don’t think so, but it’s not.

I’ve never, I’ve never actually counted, believe it or not. And I think this comes back to, here’s what I want people to hear. This is what I want people to hear. Honestly, if there’s one thing you take away, stop, stop thinking about like calories or even grams of fiber. Think about diversity of plants because the research says, and I kind of touched on this, but I want to just, I just want to slam dunk at home right now that the research says that people who eat at least 30 varieties of plants per week have the healthiest guts.

They have the healthiest gut microbiome, 30 plants per week. If you make this your goal, when you’re in the supermarket, when you’re in the kitchen, when you’re at the dinner table, you will accomplish this. The health, the food system will not do this for you because they don’t care about your health. But if you make this a part of what you do in these places, the supermarket, the kitchen and the dinner table, it will happen.

It’s not hard to do. And next thing you know, you’re going to feel better. And the fiber numbers, I promise you, it takes care of itself.

[01:51:19] Gabby: And you remind people that that includes spices. So let’s, you know, cause people go, Oh, how am I going to get, it’s like, no, that all counts. Um, so I just, and you do the

[01:51:28] Will Bulsciewicz: berries.

[01:51:29] Gabby: Yeah, exactly. All the berries,

[01:51:30] Will Bulsciewicz: all the nuts, like just go for variety. Like why, why just eat the one, you know, blueberry? Why not add in the raspberries and the blackberries and the strawberries and get it going.

[01:51:40] Gabby: And you, and you really have a lot of variety in your, in your fiber fueled cookbook. And, and also I think people get there, they’re afraid.

They’re like, wait, what do you mean a salad that I can put nuts and fruit in and all of that. So just getting creative and having fun with it.

[01:51:55] Will Bulsciewicz: What if it tastes good? That’d be a problem. I mean, it’s just, yeah, it’s just, it’s just, you never know. Like a quick example, Gabby is like, you know, uh, I think we all make spaghetti sometimes it’s easy.

So, why not take that sauce and turn it into a vehicle to deliver plants, right? And just like whatever you got, read the fridge, see what you got. A lot of it softens up and gets actually quite delicious when it’s in tomato sauce.

[01:52:26] Gabby: It’s a great point. Well, Dr. B, I, I really appreciate your time. And so to remind people, you have Zoe and there’s an app.

You have your two books, Fiber Fueled and the Fiber Fueled Cookbook. And where else can people find you when you’re containing your social media? Uh, cause you give away a lot of information there as well. And you have a podcast. You have a lot going on. I don’t know how you have time.

[01:52:54] Will Bulsciewicz: Um, yeah, well, so you can, uh, you know, here I am, I’m, I’m bashing social media and then I give you my handle at the end of the show, but it’s there for a reason.

It’s, it’s intended to empower people. It’s not a place where people are fighting. I don’t allow that. This is a safe place where you can learn about gut health without people yelling at you. Um, so, and the gut health MD is my social media, honestly, Gabby, if there’s one place to start, this is a completely free resource that I’m very proud of.

And that’s my email list. So come to my website, theplantfedgut. com, sign up for my email list. It’s completely free. It’s my favorite thing because like I can have without restriction the conversations that I want to have. I’m an author. I like to write.

[01:53:33] Speaker 3: Yeah.

[01:53:34] Will Bulsciewicz: So I love like when a new study comes out and we can talk about it and I break it down and give it to you for free in your inbox.

So why not?

[01:53:41] Gabby: I think it’d be fun to ask your wife to get her point of view on your transformation. I think that would be really an interesting conversation.

[01:53:52] Will Bulsciewicz: You know, it’s actually, to me, like. Quite simple. This is, uh, this was life changing, life changing for me and, and not just in the fact that I’m here on a show with Gabby Reese, like also the fact that, um, I got my health back and here I am in my forties.

I’ve never been stronger in my life. I’m thriving at a time where I feel like the rules are saying that I’m not supposed to, but I don’t feel that I feel great. And also it really helps me to get in a position to be a better dad.

[01:54:24] Speaker 3: So,

[01:54:25] Will Bulsciewicz: and that’s important to me. So, um, so yeah, I’m, I’m quite grateful. I do sometimes think, I don’t know if you ever think about this.

Like I have those moments where I’m like, what if I didn’t meet her? And it’s just like, that’s a dark, that’s a dark thought. So then I go back to, I’m just glad I did.

[01:54:41] Gabby: Well, yeah. And you’re the perfect person. You have the, you have the real degree and then you can talk to the lifestyle components and that’s where we’re at now.

And it’s a perfect combination. Okay. One last, I have to ask because we always joke an expert, somebody who lives a mile away, your immediate family, the one who knew you as a little scrawny little kid, your, if you have siblings or your parents, have you been able to influence, uh, their lifestyles

[01:55:08] Will Bulsciewicz: a little bit?

Uh, my brother. So not perfectly. My, my brother, Tim, uh, he does come to me for advice and so he’s like kind of curious about it. And my, my dad, he was like kind of on board, but he’s old, he was old school. He passed away in 2020, but like when my wife would be pregnant, he was always very, very worried about where is she going to get enough protein?

Is she going to be okay? She’s okay. Dad, don’t worry. We were blessed with beautiful, healthy children. But anyway, yeah. Um, no, I, I, I, I have. And um, the thing about it, I think you can tell from this conversation, ultimately I just wanted to provide people with the facts and try to empower them to make the choices for themselves.

Cause it’s the same thing that I would do with my own children. And what I mean by that is like, don’t tell people what to do. I don’t want to be told what to do. Don’t tell people what to do, but give them guidance that they can use and they can action on it if they find it to be compelling.

[01:56:04] Gabby: Great. Well, I look forward to seeing what you do next and, um, Just thanks for your time and, and for all the things that you’re doing.

Cause I, I know it’s, um, you’re navigating a lot of things. So thank you for getting that message out and a lot of avenues. I really appreciate it.

[01:56:21] Will Bulsciewicz: Oh, it’s a great privilege, Gabby, to get to do this with you. I’m so grateful. So thank you. And thank you everyone for listening.

[01:56:28] Gabby: Thank you for listening to this week’s episode.

If you want to learn more, there is a ton of valuable information on my website. All you have to do is go to GabrielleReis. com or head to the episode show notes to find a full breakdown with helpful links to studies, research, books, podcasts, and so much more. If you have any questions, please feel free to reach out and send them to at GabbyReis on Instagram.

And if you feel inspired, please subscribe. I’ll see you next week.

About Dr. Will Bulsiewicz

Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (or “Dr. B”) is an award winning gastroenterologist, internationally recognized gut health expert and the New York Times, Publishers Weekly, USA Today, and Indie Bound-bestselling author of Fiber Fueled and The Fiber Fueled Cookbook.

With a passion for plants and helping people, he is the U.S. Medical Director and sits on the Scientific Advisory Board of ZOE, has authored more than twenty articles published in peer-reviewed scientific journals, has given more than forty presentations at national meetings, presented to Congress and the USDA, and has taught over 10,000 students how to heal and optimize their gut health.

#270: These Are the Seven Fiber Rich Foods You Need w. Dr. Will Bulsiewicz

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About Dr. Will Bulsiewicz

Dr. Will Bulsiewicz (or “Dr. B”) is an award winning gastroenterologist, internationally recognized gut health expert and the New York Times, Publishers Weekly, USA Today, and Indie Bound-bestselling author of Fiber Fueled and The Fiber Fueled Cookbook.