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In this deep and revealing conversation, I speak with Dr. Sabine Hazan, a pioneer in the field of microbiome research and the author of “Let’s Talk Sh*t.” Dr. Hazan shares her groundbreaking insights into the world of gut health, the role of fecal transplants in treating diseases, and how our microbiome might hold the key to fighting pandemics like COVID-19. This episode is an eye-opener for anyone interested in understanding the profound impact of gut health on overall well-being.

Resources Mentioned:

• @dr.sabinehazan
• www.progenabiome
• @gabbyreece
• GabrielleReese.com

Show Sponsors:

Time Stamps:

00:00 – The Link Between Gut Health and Diseases
10:01 – Fecal Transplants and Their Impact
20:01 – COVID-19 and the Microbiome
35:01 – COVID-19 and the Microbiome
50:01 – The Future of Microbiome Research
01:20:01 – COVID-19’s Impact on the Gut Microbiome
01:35:01 – Ethical Considerations in Microbiome Research
01:50:01 – The Future of Microbiome-Based Therapies

Show Transcript:

Dr. Hazan, welcome. Welcome to the show.  I’m really excited to talk to you. I, I think what you’re doing, um, is such a, is such a root element of health. And I know where you have your book. Let’s, let’s talk shit. Um, I have a bunch of girlfriends that say that, but really, I almost feel like you’ve, you’ve, you’ve even moved on since you’ve written this book.

Like, I feel like you’re further down the road. So maybe we can kind of back up starting to, in the beginning of, I, I feel like COVID. Kind of pushed you into a different part of your career.

[00:03:10] Dr. Sabine Hazan: Yeah, I think COVID, uh, for me was kind of the silver lining, if you want to put it that way. It was really an opportunity, um, to first of all, showcase the microbiome. Showcase the importance of a healthy gut of importance of gut health, right? But also it was an opportunity to see what was going on in severe patients versus COVID. You you think about the, you know, the doctor that stood at the beginning of COVID in the front line without a mask, exposed to thousands of patients and basically never got COVID.

What happened to that doctor? Uh, why didn’t he get COVID and why did a person come in die from COVID? So I think that was really the interesting part of the pandemic for me was answering that question. The other question was, was COVID in the stools, right? Is COVID a gut problem or a respiratory problem or both?

[00:04:17] Gabby: Let me back up. So your, your field of expertise is your GI specialist, but really you were doing a lot of lab testing and clinical trials. Yes. So, were, were you thinking exactly on the same track about the microbiome and how extensively involved it is in all of our health and maybe some of our, you know, cancers and Crohn’s and all these other things that people navigate?

Or was COVID something that kicked you into hyper gear?

[00:04:48] Dr. Sabine Hazan: You know, honestly, and I have to kind of like look back a bit. What happened to me was I was, I always run multiple hurricanes. That’s how I like to call them. So one minute I’m dealing with autism and I’m trying to figure out the microbiome of autism.

Another one I’m enrolling patients in Crohn’s and I’m looking at Crohn’s. Another one I’m looking at ulcerative colitis, Parkinson’s, Alzheimer’s. So I’m always running multiple You know, hurricanes or wheels spin, you know, wheels that I’m, I’m doing in research. And mainly because I come from a training of clinical trials, where in clinical trials, you’re doing one minute, you’re doing psoriasis trial.

At the same time, you’re doing a MI, myocardial infarction trial. At the same time, you’re doing a new cholesterol. At the same time, you’re doing a new acne, you know, so you’re juggling multiple wheels of. of clinical trials, different diseases. So because that’s my training, and I’ve been doing that for almost three decades, more in the last 20 years, really, or 16 years, 16 to 20 years, I’ve been kind of doing all these clinical trials.

Because I went from GI to clinical trials, and then clinical trials to the microbiome space. So because my training was always multiple, you know, diseases at once and kind of like, you know, always juggling and seeing the similarities, you know, between psoriasis and Crohn’s, the similarity between autism and Crohn’s, the similarity between autism and Alzheimer’s, right?

[00:06:26] Gabby: up in a clinical trial? What shows up as similar?

[00:06:29] Dr. Sabine Hazan: Well, it’s mostly the patients, right? So you’re, you have these, These, these testing that you do to kind of assess a patient with autism. And you have these testing that you do to assess patients with Alzheimer’s. And then when you do the testing, you’re like, wow, Alzheimer’s is very similar to autism, except it’s in the old and autism is very similar to Alzheimer’s except it’s in the young, right?

So then you start questioning, well, what is it about these two diseases, right? And here’s another thing. When you do a clinical trial on psoriasis. and you’re doing a clinical trial on Crohn’s and the medication is the same compound in a way, which is a biologic, right? You go, what is it that’s similar in Crohn’s and similar in psoriasis that we’re thinking of treating them the same way, right?

And if you look, so we tend to think of one disease, one specialty. I’m more of, I look at the whole picture, right? I look at the human being and I say, well, you know, the brain is connected to the heart, is connected to the bowels, is connected to the liver, to the nerves, the lymphatics, the blood. So we really have to look at the whole picture, just not one thing, right?

And where does it start? Does it start in the brain first? Does it start in the gut first? The commonality, you know, that all these diseases have is, or all these organs have, is they eventually all dump into the bowels. So it’s almost like this filtration system, you know, that goes through the body and then everything just dumps into the bowels and then the bowels determine You know, what’s going on there, right?

How do we rebalance to recreate health or, or balance essentially? Um, so I think to me, that’s how I started looking at clinical trials on autism, looking at clinical trials of Alzheimer’s and seeing, is there a commonality? When COVID came, I drove my scientists crazy because I said, well, the world is shut down now.

We can’t recruit in Crohn’s. We can’t recruit in my MI study for heart disease. And we couldn’t, you know, clinical trials was at standstill. And I’m not the kind of girl that stays put anyways at home doing nothing. So I’m like, well, I guess we’re going to look into COVID, right? So I told my scientists, I said, okay, we’re, we’re shifting gear.

gears and we’re going to look into COVID in the stools. And he said, that’s a new pipeline. If you know anything about my scientist, he’s very like focused and, you know, one way. And, um, and it was, it was already amazing to have had him do all these other diseases, but now he’s like, shouldn’t we be writing the data on Crohn’s disease first instead, and taking the time to write the data on Crohn’s instead of going into COVID?

And what happened was it’s it was kind of the moment where you almost look at the sky and go Um, I have a clinical trial company, I have a genetic sequencing lab, I have a portal with the FDA, maybe I’m meant to do something during COVID. Maybe I’m meant to figure it out and to look at it with my genetic sequencing lab, right?

And so that’s why it was so important for me to find COVID in the stools. I had seen some data where basically in China, they had done a PCR. A little piece of the virus was found in the stools. And I actually sent it to Scott Jackson, who’s the head of the microbiome research at the National Institute of Standard.

So remember before COVID, I had a Malibu microbiome meeting, which got canceled because of COVID. So we were all All doctors that handle the microbiome would do fecal transplant. All scientists that were doing microbiome work were going to be present March 2020 at the Malibu microbiome meeting. And so it was really funny because And not so funny because we were all put like, hey, you can’t leave, you know, Colleen Kelly couldn’t leave Brown University, Jessica Allegretti couldn’t leave Harvard, you know, everybody couldn’t travel.

So I basically sent this article to Scott Jackson at NIST, and then he started looking and thus the whole, you know, evolution of the science into the septic tank, right? That’s how they started. Testing and looking at all that. So from there, I said, well, the PCR is not really accurate. It’s just a piece of the bug.

Why don’t we look for the whole virus? And I told my scientists, I said, I don’t care about Crohn’s at this point. Let’s just focus on COVID. COVID to me was just a huge opportunity. to see the microbiome. So he said, you know, you’re going to spend 125, 000 on a pipeline and you’re not going to know because we have to validate these pipelines.

We have to use reagents, you know, machinery and scientist time and everything. So it’s super expensive. And he said, and you may not find anything. And I said, well, if I don’t look, I’m not going to find anything. And I’m not, you know, it’s so, it’s so funny because you get to a point in life where it’s about the science.

And you don’t look at, especially when you analyze poop for a living, or you decide that you’re going to be, you know, buying a half a million dollar machine or machinery to analyze poop. Money doesn’t have the value anymore. You kind of like, so, you know, to me, I was like, let’s just spend it. Let’s look at it.

And then he called me and he goes, guess how many samples of people that have positive PCR in the nose have COVID in the stools? And I said, how many? And he goes, a hundred percent of patients. And that’s when I knew we have a valid assay that can show me the whole genome. That means I can follow the evolution of the virus.

That means I can follow what treats the virus. That means I can see different therapies, what’s working, what’s not working to make the virus disappears. Because it’s like you have a scar or you have a lesion on your hand and then you zap the lesion, the lesion disappears. Bam, the treatment’s working, right?

So the same thing with, you know, you find COVID in the stools and then it disappears after treatment, the treatment’s working. I mean, you know, you don’t need a placebo controlled trial to tell you treatment worked. It disappeared. It’s no longer in the stools.

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So what Well, okay, first. For you as somebody who’s done research and trials and all of this, when we hear cancer, Alzheimer’s, um, and I know autism’s maybe even more, a little more nuanced. A lot of times it’s like, these are the symptoms of maybe possibly a very different root cause where I feel like the thinking before has been like, oh, that’s the disease.

Right. But not actually going, well, maybe that is actually the symptom.

[00:17:31] Dr. Sabine Hazan: Right. And what’s the root cause?

[00:17:33] Gabby: Right. Do you feel that given your work and the people that you work with and other researchers, I feel like that that conversation has really shifted and it’s like, well, it’s expressing itself as a symptom as one of these quote diseases.

Does that surprise you?

[00:17:52] Dr. Sabine Hazan: I, you know, it’s funny because I’ve been doing medicine for at least three decades now, and we’ve gone in medicine from, hey, let’s figure out the differential diagnosis first of the symptoms. So for example, you’ve got weight loss. Okay. Let’s figure out what causes weight loss, right?

And then you kind of go through this list of things and you rule them out with different tests, right? And then the other thing that’s interesting is that we used to, let’s say I, we’ll go with diarrhea or rectal bleed, okay? So rectal bleed, you know, you again, you go through the differential. Is it colon cancer?

Is it inflammatory bowel disease? Is it hemorrhoids? Is it, you know, what’s going on there, right? The problem is this. It’s when you kind of narrow it down to like inflammatory bowel disease, it used to be because I’m old enough to, to have been trained that way. It used to be, well, you’ve got inflammation now figure out what’s the culprit is the inflammation from medications is the inflammation from an infection.

Uh, is the inflammation from stress? What’s the culprit, right? We’ve stopped that, that training, in a way. And, and here’s the thing, and, and after you find, you narrow it down, you go, well it’s not stress, the person was fine, it’s not a tumor, it’s not uh, medications. It’s really infectious, possibly. We used to look further, right?

In other words, is it tuberculosis in the terminal ileum that’s causing this? Is it, you know, Yersinia enterolytica? And other bugs, you know, you start looking for other microbes, right? So you play detective. We’ve stopped that. The era of the biologics has assumed that everybody is the same in the inflammatory bowel disease and therefore why go searching for the microbe or, you know, even look into the genetics.

Let’s just treat everybody as if it’s, you know, the same problem. And so the, the search, the detective work in medicine has changed a lot and partly geared by. You know, the guidelines partly geared by an industry that is pushing a product. Um, and also mostly geared with decreasing liability for doctors.

Let’s just do guidelines. Let’s, and also reimbursement, you know, think about insurance reimbursement at the doctor’s office, you know, you’ve got 10 minutes. to figure out everything about this patient where you’re getting paid like 50 bucks or 100 bucks. And you have all this overhead of employees that you’re supporting.

So the, the crunching of the, of the fees, um, to the doctor’s office, make it very difficult for physicians to practice the way that they used to practice because you went from, you know, a 400 bill, for example, that got Trumped up all the way to $78, but you have to pay your secretary $50 an hour. You have to pay your nurse, you know, a hundred dollars an hour.

So there goes that, and now you can’t spend an hour with that patient. So the crunching of the time of the doctor in the doctor’s office. is the beginning where you go okay well I only have 10 minutes to figure out this patient because that’s all the time that the insurance has allotted me to take care of this patient.

I’m supposed to figure out stress. I’m supposed to figure out like all that. There’s no way. You can barely get to know a patient and especially when you have complicated complicating cases like, you know, a person that’s sexually molested, you know, when you have got trauma, when you’ve got a person was beaten up, or, you know, they have such a stress because their boyfriend broke up with them, or they have like a family member that died.

You can’t get to those with that 10 minutes. So what happens is now we have a liability on the physician where if he makes a mistake and gives a treatment, then He’s not going to want to practice anymore and then there’s a liability that’s going to shut him down. So now the guidelines are created to kind of protect.

But the guidelines are also written to, you know, protect the industry, to bring on the industry that is bringing the medications. And, and, and by the way, I’ve been in this industry, right? I’m not anti industry. I’m not anti pharma. Because I’m the girl that basically was bringing products to market. You know, it was so funny because I was called an anti vaxxer during the pandemic because I questioned the new technology of vaccines.

And I said, you do realize I’ve brought vaccines to the market, right? I mean, I did clinical trials on, on the flu and vaccines for the flu, you know? So, um, so. I can’t be an anti vaxxer if I’m bringing vaccines to the market. But at the same time, I will look at the vaccine and question it. This vaccine was different to me because it was a new technology.

Two, the other interesting thing about it is the physicians that I consider the most righteous physicians in the industry of clinical trials were not allowed to do the vaccine studies. They were not part of it. Like I’m thinking like two people in particular were the number one recruiters for vaccines.

They did not get those trials.

[00:23:11] Gabby: Yeah.

[00:23:12] Dr. Sabine Hazan: And I, that’s already. A red flag for me because it’s like, why didn’t these people get the trials? And why did these companies that are not even owned by doctors that are owned by businessmen have the trials? Is there something going on that there’s going to be some cheating going on that we’re not going to be aware of?

Because I have no problem with bringing a drug to market provided I’m allowed to do the clinical trial to see the data firsthand, right? So think about when I brought, when we started doing work on clinical trials on biologics. For Crohn’s and ulcerative colitis, you know, I saw firsthand or psoriasis even, right?

I saw firsthand my patient was covered with psoriasis and sure enough, psoriasis disappeared. That’s something I can support because right now at this moment in time that I was doing the clinical trial, that’s the best thing we have to offer the patients. Of course, 10 years, 20 years down the road. Maybe we’ll be in the microbiome space and that’ll be the next thing.

So I think it’s important to not trash where we’re at right now, but to also be ethical and righteous and say, is this a legit drug. Is this safer or riskier, right? Assess the risk benefit ratio. Give an informed consent to the patient. Say to the patient, you know what, this is what we’ve observed. You know, we’ve had some patients had these symptoms.

And that’s what I do when I do clinical trials, you know, we’ve had these patients, these symptoms, you have this bad disease, you have to say, do you want to wait until we get the better stuff in five, 10 years down the road, or do you want to take a chance and, and maybe get, you know, get those side effects and you can live with that.

And then the patient makes the decision, right? The patient says, you know what, doc, I can’t live like this. I’d rather just, take the medicine, right? So, um, so that’s what it was about when

[00:25:14] Gabby: you, when you talk about COVID. And really saying, okay, here’s an opportunity to take some time, the world shut down and, and study this virus.

When you could identify it, what, what’s the step? What do you do? What’s the, what’s the thing that happens? Well, you know, I’m

[00:25:32] Dr. Sabine Hazan: a physician, like, luckily, so you know, I put on my, my, my thinking hat as a physician, and I basically said, Okay, well, I’ve got an asset that shows me COVID. How am I going to treat this?

Right? How am I gonna Because you got to start innovating, you got to start practicing the art of medicine, right? And so I started reading, I started picking up all and I was very lucky to, to have, you know, collaborated. I’m on a lot of pages on Facebook. That was the one thing that was good of Facebook at the moment, at that moment in time, when they censored my clinical trials, that was not a good moment.

But when they But at that moment in time, we connected as physicians and we basically all, because we knew like at some point that connection in Facebook might be disappearing, we all give each other our emails and then we started creating a group of emails and we found each other on WhatsApp, we found each other on, you know, other applications where we basically Um, you know, gathered ourselves.

So we were about 300 doctors plus from around the world, actually, that just stepped up and said, Hey, I found this article, read this, look at this. And then I found this article. And then, you know, uh, DDA Raul in France wrote that paper and, um, on hydroxychloroquine and Z Pak at the beginning, before even COVID got to here, it was in French, it was like a small number of patients, but what amazed me about.

Why I started listening and paying attention to him was not the fact that he saved 18 people or 28 people or 100 people at the beginning of the pandemic. It was the fact that here’s an older man. who is not afraid to be in front of patients without a mask and is treating those people. So I wanted to know what’s his secret that he’s alive.

Because remember, I was at the beginning, I didn’t even have a mask because I used them during the, uh, Woolsey fire. If you remember, I was giving them out to the whole community. So I didn’t even have a mask and N95 in my office when I started seeing patients. And so, I was exposed and I was scared. I mean, like, I remember the first, when I started reading all this, I, um, I kind of was looking at all this and, and saying, Oh my God, you know, people are dying.

They’re crashing. I’m going to die. I’m going to bring it home to my family. My husband’s a cardiologist. He’s going to bring it home to me, you know, my kids, my, you know, so. All that was going through my mind. So I was the first, you know, probably week that I started treating patients. I was like an astronaut in space covered completely.

And then I could, you know, like, cause I didn’t have the mask, but I had like that super, like, You know, hazmat, you’re going, it’s almost like a hazmat going. Yeah. Like you’re going like scuba diving. Yeah. So basically I was dressed like that for about a week and then I’m like, I can’t breathe. I’m dying.

Forget it. I’m removing this. And it, it happened because the first week I started treating a patient that was really the worst of the worst. And he survived. So when he survived, I’m like, well, if this guy survived,

[00:28:39] Gabby: did he have other comorbidities? That guy? Yes. C hf. He had

[00:28:42] Dr. Sabine Hazan: heart disease, kidney disease, had had a bypass two weeks prior.

And he lived. And so I had given him the dreaded hydroxychloroquine. I was even afraid of giving it to him. I told him, just lick it and then take Z Pak and then take vitamin C, vitamin D and zinc. I was so nervous because it was the beginning, right? And then somewhere along the line, I realized, you know, and we connected with Diane Burnett and Diane, you know, is full of life and she’s always like looking at the, you know, the positive side, the other side, she calls it.

And she goes, Sabine. You’re, you know, only 1 percent of people are dying. You’re in, you’re probably in the 99%. What are you scared of? What are you wearing? And then she, she kind of like snapped me out of that fear. And I’m like, you know what, why am I looking at the dark? I’m always the person that looks at the positive.

So that’s when I changed my gear, right? Um, I said, okay, you know what? I’m going to look at what’s been written. I have the assay, I’ve got all this. And so I started treating.

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Did you take anything yourself as a prophylactic like vitamin D? What were you taking? I took

[00:34:06] Dr. Sabine Hazan: vitamin C. So I, at the beginning I took a lot of vitamin C, which I’m not going to say the dosage cause everybody’s going to think, Oh, let’s take that much dosage. No, no, no. Vitamin C at high dosages could affect certain people depending on the kidneys.

Cetera. I took a lot of vitamin C and it was so funny because I, I had my microbiome test before the pandemic and I test myself like on a weekly or monthly basis. I own the lab. Why not? And I figured, you know what? I’m gonna be the biggest Guinea pig ’cause I’m out there. I’ll see what the microbiome is doing in me first.

Um. Before other people, so I took a lot of vitamin C and then my scientist calls me up and he goes, Did you look at your stools of last month? I go, No, why did I have COVID? Because that was the first thing, right? He goes, No, you didn’t have COVID. But he goes, Look at your bifidobacteria level. And I go, what?

And then I looked at it. It was four or five times the, the, the level. Like I remember, I think I had like a four per, I can’t remember, like 2 percent went up to 4 percent or something like that. So I was like,

[00:35:11] Gabby: What? And did you already know at this time that bifidobacteria is the one that we covet and want a lot of?

[00:35:21] Dr. Sabine Hazan: I had a clue because I had, remember before the pandemic, I was collecting stools from Crohn’s, Lyme, you know, patients, Alzheimer’s, newborns. I’m a huge fan of newborns, so I salivate when there’s a mom and she tells me she’s pregnant. I’m like, Oh my God, can I pay for your stools to look at the newborn baby?

So I love newborn poop. So, um, so I don’t know, as crazy as it sounds, but you know, you’ve had kids, they’re fresh, they smell good, they’re cute, they’re, you know, and the babies are just adorable. So. You know, when I started looking at the newborns, I’m like, wow, the newborns have what, you know, when COVID hit, the first thing that came to mind is if you look at the population that would, that was dying, it was the population of the elderly, the nursing home patients, the cancer patients, the diabetics, the morbidly obese.

So I looked at my population in my database and I said, well, the morbidly obese have this. This picture of the microbiome, the elderly have this picture of the microbiome. What did the newborns have that they’re fine? Bifidobacteria was the key finding. So when I saw that I zoned in on bifidobacteria and we’re lucky, lucky and not so lucky because we did a lot of, I mean not about luck, but we did a lot of work to get a validated assay.

You know, in order to get any data on the microbiome, you really need your stool sample. That you’re testing to be the same, if you test it today, tomorrow, next month, next year, and it needs to be the same, even if you give, no, it needs to be the same if you eat the same things, right? So if your diet is exactly the same from day to day.

You’re basically this, you’re validated, okay? If your stool sample varies, okay, in other words, I have the same stool sample and I’m testing it twice and I don’t get the same results, there’s a problem. You didn’t do the research properly. You didn’t do the steps to make sure that this stool acid is the same, right?

So validation in, in medicine is very key. Validation, verification, reproducing the data, right? So in other words, I’ll take the stool sample. I’ll have even a separate technician say, okay, here’s my stool sample of yesterday. I got this result. Give me what you have, right? And if those two match, then you have a validated assay.

And that means at that point that you could say with confidence, this is your bifidobacteria level or not, right? So, now if I do something like I take vitamin C, which is different from the norm, and I’m taking extra amounts of vitamin C, that vitamin C is going to do something to my microbiome and I’m going to see the changes in the microbiome.

If I take high dosages of magnesium, that’s going to do something to my microbiome. If I take high dosages. So it’s important to do the research, to look at all these components. In other words, well, if I’m having a person like you come into my office and I basically test your microbiome and I see high bifidobacteria, I have to look at what you’re taking to say, Well, you know what?

You’re taking high dosages of vitamin C. Maybe that’s why your bifidobacteria is so high. So I can’t really compare you to someone else that’s the same age, same race, same health status, because you have something that’s confounding. So it’s a very, very difficult science to master, right? And I really think God kind of gave it to me because I am the master of juggling all these things with different diseases and being able to see the whole picture.

So I think to me, you know, I knew how to do this. I knew that in order to do this science, it needed to be a clinical trial. I knew that we needed to see what Parkinson’s looked like with Parkinson’s patients, but also differentiating the populations of Parkinson’s. In other words, what does the Indian Parkinson’s look like compared to the South African?

You mean

[00:39:32] Gabby: like, let’s just say Indian, they have a lot of, I’m making it up turmeric in their diet. Yes. Okay. So you mean those kinds of variations, those

[00:39:40] Dr. Sabine Hazan: variations, but also the city, the location, you know, think about Mexico, you’re in Mexico, you’re drinking the water from Mexico, you get diarrhea from Giardia.

The Mexicans that are there are drinking the same water. They’re fine. They’ve adapted to the Giardia, right? You haven’t, your sterile environment going into there. That’s not, you know, that, so they have a different microbiome than you do. They have a different way of accepting the Giardia because they have other microbes that are basically suppressing the Giardia.

And that’s how you have to kind of think of the microbiome. You have to think of it as Trillion bugs just hanging around and one suppresses another so it doesn’t secrete a toxin. And once you remove the, the one that suppresses, the good guy, then the bad guy starts going crazy. I mean, it’s, it’s a little bit like what we see in the world, right?

You’ve got the bad guys and the good guys and the good guys are always trying to like calm down the bad guys. You know, I think the bad guys are probably losing microbes personally. They’ve probably lost microbes that make them like this to begin with.

[00:40:51] Gabby: Yeah. Well, I mean, anxiety, mental health, all kinds of depression, all things, nevermind just, uh, chronic illness.

Right. This is impacted by everything. So if, if you saw this is just, uh, to get a baseline understanding. If you saw this person definitely had COVID. Yes. Um, I’ve isolated. I found the microbe. Yeah. Is there, is there at that point that you go in and you say, we’re going to, we’re going to give you something and see if we can elevate either minimize that, like, how does it work that you go, Hey, what’s working?

What do you guys do from that point?

[00:41:27] Dr. Sabine Hazan: What do you do? So first you analyze what, what was the, so what clued me into. Um, to the whole, um, essentially, um, COVID and hydroxychloroquine to begin with was really seeing two people that were 10 days after having had COVID. And seeing those, they were still positive by, by, no, actually they were not positive by, by a nasal.

They had, they basically, the virus disappeared, but they had positive PCR before. The only thing they took was hydroxychloroquine and Z Pak. That’s when you start looking, right? Think about my experiment that I did, the N of 1, that I like to call it. So think about the experiment that I did where I took vitamin C.

What do you do when you see that? Okay. Well, you want to reproduce it, right? So what are you going to do? You’re going to call all your friends and you’re going to say in the, you know, my doctors and I’m going to say, Hey, if you’re giving vitamin C to patients and not changing anything or giving them anything else, can I look at the before and after?

Can I test the patients or even my own patients? I would say, look, I’m going to give you high dosages of vitamin C. Do you mind if I retest your stools for free after? to see what the microbiome looks like, you know, before and after. And basically, uh, that’s how we got, you know, to see the changes. And then when you compare and you add 20 more samples from my sample to that 20, you start seeing the P value is, is, is definitely good enough to say, Hey, this is true.

So that’s how you do it. So now same thing with hydroxychloroquine. You know, you look at the patients, you see clinically they’re improving, they’re doing better. And then you give them the hydroxy and the Z Pak and it basically kills the virus. But here’s the problem with hydroxy that nobody really talks about.

The same thing that killed the virus kills your microbiome. That’s a pain to fix once you’ve killed it, right? So when people talk to me about long hauler, right? Which seems to be the big topic these days, right? You have to look at long hauler in different ways. You have to look at long hauler. Is the long, you go back to your detective work, right?

Is the long hauler because the patient still has COVID in the stools? That’s number one. Because we, our lab showed patients that were for six months a kid with Tourette’s. Uh, like symptoms, uh, completely non functional, went from a beautiful young teenager to completely non functional. The videos on YouTube, uh, Tourette’s, Dr.

Hazen, people can Google that. And we found COVID in her stool six months after the exposure to her parents that had COVID. She was never treated because we said, well, she’s a kid, she’s fine. I didn’t give her anything. She didn’t even take vitamins and the parents exposed her. She probably had it in her gut.

And then it was probably continuing to kill the microbiome. And then at that point now becomes full on Tourette’s and neurological problems. Now, what happened to that kids? The virus is still there. You got to kill the virus in order to boost back the microbiome. So that’s what we did and now the kid graduated high school.

She’s doing great and no more symptoms whatsoever. Now you look at the second cause of long hauler. Did you kill the microbiome and didn’t address the microbiome and therefore because you didn’t address the microbiome, the patient is having neurological cancer, all these things that are coming out of, you know, COVID, right?

And then the third thing is, is it the virus is gone, but maybe the spike protein is still lingering? And is the spike protein itself causing problems to the microbiome causing a bifidophage? Think back about our study that we did before and after vaccination, we tested patient, doctors, and for the most part, when they were at home, um, at baseline, they had bifidobacteria, they go into the workforce, they get vaccinated, a month later we test their stools, and then we noticed, no, the bifidobacteria dropped,

[00:45:45] Gabby: and

[00:45:45] Dr. Sabine Hazan: then we continued to test these doctors.

And in four patients, the, it continued to drop at like 90 days later, that means something. And these people didn’t have COVID because remember we test for COVID in the stools. So why, what is it that’s killing the bifidobacteria in these patients? It could be the spike protein. And so spike protein is something we’re working on developing an assay to develop, to look at it.

Cause we want to make sure when we test the breast milk, you know, That’s important and breast milk is so important. We want to make sure that there’s no spike protein in the breast milk, you know, so COVID to me. isolating COVID in the stools or, or identifying COVID in the stools was very important to me at the beginning because I do fecal transplant.

[00:46:34] Gabby: The

[00:46:34] Dr. Sabine Hazan: process of taking stools from a healthy donor to an unhealthy. And the last thing I want is for, to be shut down doing what I do to help patients, right? So I got to make sure that Everything I do on these patients, first of all, that I follow the guidelines of the FDA, that we test all these tools per FDA guidelines, but be above and beyond the FDA and test for COVID.

That’s why it was important to have an assay that tested for COVID because the last thing I needed was to give the vaccine. Stools of a COVID patient to a healthy, and then something happens. It’s like, Oh my God, Dr. Eason gave COVID to a patient, you know?

[00:47:13] Gabby: Yeah.

[00:47:13] Dr. Sabine Hazan: So, so that’s why, that’s why I stepped into this, right?

My field is really looking at what am I doing when I’m taking poop from a healthy donor and changing a disease like Alzheimer’s, you know? We had an N of 1 that I published, which took me a long time to publish, where we gave the stools of the wife to the husband, My wife was super sharp. The husband had Alzheimer’s.

He didn’t qualify in one of my pharmaceutical clinical trial because he was too sick. They wanted like a average range of Alzheimer’s. So I said to the, and then he got C diff. So I said to the wife, well, let’s, let’s, let’s do it. Give him your stools. You’re as compatible as could be. You’ve been married to him for so long.

Um, let’s give him your stools. And then all of a sudden we see this guy go from a mini mental status of 21 to 29 in six months and regaining his memory to the point that he remembered his daughter’s date of birth. That’s what got me into this field to begin with. It was this case, not saying, okay, well, let’s just do fecal transplant, but what is going on in Alzheimer’s?

Is it a microbe? Because if it’s a microbe, I better prevent it in case I found it in me, right? So that’s what got me into this, the really the diagnostic, the detective work. That’s what got me into COVID, the diagnostic, the detective work, finding COVID, you know.

[00:48:34] Gabby: Walk me through, Cause people hear that and then, you know, of course everybody’s brain goes like, Oh, you take your, what do you’ve got a poop and you’re putting up someone’s rectum.

It’s like, it’s, it’s very, very different. In fact, I have a good friend who was doing this. They have a son who’s autistic 10 years ago and it was very expensive 10 years ago and he would see a real improvement for, you know, four to six months. The kid would stop sissing and certain things. So first of all, um, Let’s say someone is Crohn’s and, or, or they’ve come to some realization that their gut, never mind like a, a mature stage of Alzheimer’s or cancer, let’s just say someone’s like, Hey, I’m, I’m not right.

So let’s start at the beginning level. I can’t get my gut right. I’m starting to feel the impacts. This is something I’m going to consider. How do you know, um, that you’re a person who could even consider a fecal transplant? So you

[00:49:33] Dr. Sabine Hazan: can consider a fecal transplant in this country, first of all, or any real country, any other countries really, because the science is not there yet for those diseases, right?

The only thing you can consider it for is Clostridium difficile, which is basically a bacteria people get from taking a lot of antibiotics, kills the microbiome, and then essentially what you’re doing is with C. diff is you’re trying, you’re giving vancomycin, you’re giving fladrol, you’re giving all these medications, they don’t work, they keep killing the microbiome.

So then what happens is they come for fecal transplant, fecal transplant works because what are you doing? You’re reinstating,

[00:50:09] Gabby: repopulating, repopulating the

[00:50:11] Dr. Sabine Hazan: microbiome.

[00:50:12] Gabby: So on C. diff, tell me if this is, and I just want to say, if, let’s talk shit, your book, there is, uh, to all of this, there’s a study attached to every piece.

So I just want to get super clear. You might be saying certain things in a conversational way, which I want to keep here. But if people get this book, there are a gazillion studies and they’re on point. You don’t have to go to the back of the book. Okay. So having said that, if C diff, is it one in like 11 people, if they’re over 65 and they’ve been given antibiotics, They end up dying.

Am I getting this right?

[00:50:49] Dr. Sabine Hazan: Yes, but now it’s affecting the young people too. It’s affecting, you know, we had newborns that had C. diff. So it is not just the old people that are getting this. And I think partly because unfortunately there are a lot of factors that are killing the microbiome, not just antibiotics.

[00:51:08] Gabby: Sure, we’ve got our air, our water, our food, and I think medications kick the shit out of you. Especially,

[00:51:15] Dr. Sabine Hazan: you know, like you look at a case of a 20 year old young girl who basically had a hamburger and then all of a sudden develops diarrhea. And um, when you basically. Talk to her and you get the history.

You find out she ate a hamburger. Did the hamburger come from a cow that was vaccinated, had hormones, had antibiotics? Did the cow, you know, eat some, some grass that had a bunch of pesticides? So there’s a lot of factors, you know, and, and I hate to say all this, right? But I mean, unfortunately we live in a toxic world.

I mean, you, you’re basically dodging the bullet every time of whatever you’re eating. And, and I think we need to start being a. front with that.

[00:51:57] Gabby: Yeah.

[00:51:58] Dr. Sabine Hazan: And say, look, our foods are have a ton of pesticides. I mean, have you seen these trucks? It’s gallons. It goes into the earth. What is that doing to the microbiome of the earth, which is where our fruits come from, you know?

[00:52:14] Gabby: so wait, before we, we, cause I want to address that. So you’re allowed, if it shows up that you have C diff, you can actually. lobby for yourself to get a fecal transplant. Is that right?

[00:52:25] Dr. Sabine Hazan: If you have C. diff, you can go to the doctor. So it’s only for C. diff? Only for C. diff. Yeah. The FDA gave strict guidance to the GI doctors and said, look, we will let you do fecal transplant for C.

diff. Because the FDA and the government agents and the NIH and the National Institute of Standards consider stools to be microbes, to be a weapon, right? I mean, we’ve certainly seen COVID is in the stools. It’s a weapon, right? So you could, you know, when you have a bacteria like tuberculosis, That could wipe out, you know, populations.

[00:53:01] Gabby: so it’s important. So if I have Parkinson’s, let’s say, and I’ve tried everything. I’m just making it up. And I have a friend or a daughter or somebody who has Parkinson’s. They’re healthy. I know how healthy they are. Do I have as a paying customer anywhere? Do I have the opportunity to say, I’d like to do fecal transplant?

Or do I have to sign up for a some kind of trial? Or it’s just like, yeah, that’s off the table.

[00:53:27] Dr. Sabine Hazan: It’s off the table.

[00:53:29] Gabby: Okay.

[00:53:29] Dr. Sabine Hazan: It’s off the table, sadly, because there’s certain processes you have to go through to get approval by the FDA. And that’s super expensive. I see.

[00:53:39] Gabby: Is it maybe because it, it just kind of blows my mind that if it works for C diff and we know it repopulates the microbiome and that could be some of the stuff that they sort of wouldn’t allow that then for other,

[00:53:50] Dr. Sabine Hazan: No, I think here’s the thing.

We’re always scared of what we don’t know. And I think there’s a fear of what if we change something when we repopulate the gut of a Parkinson’s patient? What if we get worse? What if we kill the patient, right? So it definitely needs supervision.

[00:54:12] Gabby: Mm hmm.

[00:54:13] Dr. Sabine Hazan: So the FDA you know, gets good and bad. And I have a love hate relationship with the FDA.

But on the whole, you know, the agents out there are trying to do good and to look at safety. I mean, you know, think of all the drugs that were, you know, busted for doing, you know, bad research. The problem is that the FDA during the pandemic was kind of like almost lost. And I think that’s the only explanation that I have is the panic that went around the world.

You know, at the NIH, at the CDC, at the FDA, and not knowing what to do. That panic, I think, is especially during Delta,

[00:54:56] Gabby: that

[00:54:57] Dr. Sabine Hazan: panic blocked people into thinking, Okay, we got to just focus on the vaccine, right? But the problem is, we were focusing on the vaccine and people were focusing on the vaccine because The price of the stock of the vaccine was attached to that, right?

Yeah. So what if you remove the the price of the stock and then it’s no longer you can’t make any money from the vaccine, then I think everything would have been kind of like people would have come to the table together. What we saw was really a one opinion, one hypothesis, one way And, you know, sadly, our agencies were leading that trend, but our agencies didn’t do the research that should have been done.

And, and the research that should have been done was longer animal studies, um, you know, longer, uh, safety trials. When you’re thinking about vaccinating a whole world. Okay. And we’re talking about Africa, you know, the Amazon jungle. I mean, there were trucks from Bill Gates at the Amazon jungle trying to vaccinate these women.

And they were basically hiding into the forest and going under because, um, they were scared. They didn’t want to vaccinate. Now think about vaccinating a person in New York, who’s, you know, in a sterile environment and vaccinating a person with the same technology, vaccinating a person in the Amazon jungle who depends on their microbiome to survive that Amazon.

That is a dangerous thing to do, right? Vaccinating Africa, Central Africa, where those people are in the jungle exposed to all sorts of bugs and flies and animals and, you know, elephant dung and all that, right? They’re exposed to ticks galore. What is the vaccine doing to that population where they have already adapted to living in that environment?

You know, people in the city have adapted to living in the environment, into the city, but people in the jungle have not. Now, if your intent is to make sure that the planet, is the same and you remove, you know, the Africa and you remove the Amazon jungle and you just create a whole world of New York City.

Well, what you’re going to do is you’re going to destroy the planet and humanity because unfortunately the planet is only surviving because of the diversity of the regions like the Amazon, the Africa, the You know areas that are remote in Australia think about Malibu, right? How much land do we have that is in the conservancy?

To keep that area protected to keep those microbes protected to give us health, right? Once you wipe that out and you put a bunch of houses everywhere in Malibu Well, you no longer have that microbiome to protect you So I think it’s a mistake. The other thing is What creates a healthy microbiome, and that’s a really important concept to learn, is the diversity of the microbes.

A person that is healthy has a diverse microbiome. They’ve got a lot of ruminococcus, a lot of lactobacillus, a lot of, you know, a lot of different microbes. Bifidobacteria, a lot of clostridium, just variety. It’s like a garden full of different flowers, okay? Or different fruits, right? So that diversity equals health.

When you remove a bunch of microbes. You remove the rumenococcus. Well, now you can’t absorb vitamin B. You remove the lactobacillus. You remove the bifidobacteria. You can’t absorb sugar. You can’t absorb dairy. So all of a sudden you’re left with half of a microbiome, right? And then what happens is, The person has a disease, whether the disease is diabetic, diabetes, whether the disease is Parkinson’s, Alzheimer’s, there’s a disease state because we’ve killed the diversity, right?

And here’s the problem. In killing the diversity, you killed also the balance of the diversity, the good with the bad. Because you could have a diverse microbiome but full of bad microbes, right? Right. That doesn’t, that’s also disease, right? Right. So, now we take that to humanity and the planet. You kill off a race.

that was bringing something. Think about, you know, every race has a different talent. Now you’ve lost that talent that was helping humanity survive, think, etc. So, so if people are

[00:59:38] Gabby: listening, because I think the gut is confusing. And you know, when they talk about trillions, everyone starts going, Oh, and then you know, you go to the market and they go prebiotic, probiotic, right, all this stuff, from a layman’s point of view, if someone’s basically, you know, they’re not in a state of disease.

And they think, you know, I want to populate. I mean, you hear diverse and diets, you know, tons of vegetables, different colors. Are there supplements or other things that for the regular person that you go, Hey, this really keeps showing up over and over to at least be part of the win.

[01:00:17] Dr. Sabine Hazan: Well, I think a good level of vitamin D, if you’re not in the sun, you’re not getting vitamin D.

And I think vitamin D is very important. I think a balanced diet is very important, but also the foods you’re putting in. Right. So. Are you putting in, you know, foods again to go back to the pesticides, you know? Are you eating blueberries, raspberries that have been full of pesticides? Well, that’s not going to help you even though you’re eating the vegetables.

Are you going to eat salads that are full of pesticides? You know, so, If you’re, you know, I tend to kind of say, make sure you know where your food comes from, make sure you read the labels. You know, if you see like a bunch of added stuff to your vitamins, ask questions. Why are those added? Do I need that?

What is that doing to my microbiome? That’s how I did it anyways. You know, when I started at the pandemic, you know, the question of vitamin C is vitamin C equal. No, some vitamins have a lot of chemicals in there that were added, whether it’s on purpose or whether it’s on, they try to keep the vitamin C lasting a bit longer and therefore put preservatives in there to kind of keep it on that shelf life.

Think about when you and I were growing up, you know, we had fresh milk. The fresh milk lasts three days. Okay, and we were lucky we could put it in the fridge Maybe four days tops, right? Now you buy these milks in the grocery store. They can last up to two to three weeks, right? What do they put in the milk to keep that on the shelf longer?

And what is that thing in the milk doing to your microbiome?

[01:01:51] Gabby: Did you think about that? Let’s say you just got out of medical school. Was that even part on your mind or has this been really a process for you? No, this was a

[01:01:58] Dr. Sabine Hazan: process. This was a process. I mean, if I knew what I, if I knew what I know now, I probably would be completely different.

You know, uh, but this was a process. It’s a learning process. It’s a process that you, you know, you have to kind of get to this level to, to understand.

[01:02:15] Gabby: Yeah, I think, I think that’s right. I think it’s not about doing, changing everything all at once or getting overwhelmed. It’s just slowly making different improvements and different choices.

Yes. What, I need to be reminded, capsules. So here I am taking these supplements that might help my bifidobacteria, but then what the capsule is made of is not helping my bifidobacteria. So what are the ingredients that I could look at? So you want

[01:02:41] Dr. Sabine Hazan: to look for a vegetable capsule. That’s the key. Um, you know, because a vegetable capsule gets decomposed by your body and it’s fine.

Um, you want to try to avoid anything else that’s in there. And like I said, you know, not to put any companies out there. Yeah. You know, there’s a lot of compounds that probably shouldn’t be in the vitamins, that probably shouldn’t be in the probiotics. You mean

[01:03:03] Gabby: fillers?

[01:03:04] Dr. Sabine Hazan: Fillers, um, substances, you know, uh, just, you know, Read the, read the label and you’ll be shocked.

Like I, I looked at a, a water for example. So alkaline water, not a fan of alkaline water because you know, you have acidity, your stomach is created to have acid in there. So that basically the acidity, um, kills all the microbes that you’re getting that possibly could be bad microbes entering your gut, right?

So you need an acidic stomach. Okay, because that’s how we were created. If you take alkaline water, what is that doing to the acidity of your stomach? And yes, possibly alkaline water may have a role in people with cancer because You know, or people that don’t have acid to begin with. But what is it doing, you know, to a healthy individual?

And that’s, and then you read the ingredients of the alkaline water and you see chloride, you see, you know, all sorts of added substances. I remember I was in Denver, I think I was at a conference and I wanted some water. The only waters there were, were all alkaline water. And you read the ingredients and I know because I’ve been testing so many things on the microbiome, I know that certain things are just not good, right?

Now, luckily, I think a lot of it gets destroyed by the stomach and doesn’t really reach. And then, you know, your body, you know, you drink alkaline water, your brain stimulates the gut to produce acid because it recognizes the alkaline. So our bodies are designed to basically You know, get ready to reestablish that neutral pH, right?

In all those different components, think about how amazing the body is where you can drink a glass of alkaline water. It sends an impulse to the brain says, Hey, Too much alkalinity lets increase with acid in the stomach and at the same time their kidneys are doing their thing Their lungs are doing their thing to kind of reestablish that pH So think about the amazing thing that we have in the human body So when you’re healthy, the last thing you want to do is kind of mess up that environment, that homeostasis, that brain working, those kidneys working.

Now, in a person that, whose kidneys are not working, they have, you know, um, no filtration, they’re on dialysis. That’s a different story, right? That’s a different case. But in the healthy population, I would say as natural as possible. You know, the, what we knew, you know, 100 years ago of healthy food, healthy diet, how exercise, you know, that doesn’t, you know, healthy mental status that doesn’t just disappear, right?

So the microbiome is really an interesting new technology that just reconfirms what we already know. You need to exercise. You need to eat right. Like if I had to do it over again, I don’t know that I would have gone into medicine with all the stress and the

[01:06:11] Gabby: sleep deprivation, the sleep

[01:06:13] Dr. Sabine Hazan: deprivation, the You know, the whole work of the pandemic, gaining the weight, et cetera, you know, I probably would have been changed my life.

I probably would have made a better change of lifestyle and said, you know, maybe I’ll be an athlete instead of being, you know, so, but, but that’s what I’m saying. It’s, you know, as an athlete. What to do, because you’ve maintained a certain level of excellence in, you know, an athletics in your body in what you should put, you know, what you’re doing.

[01:06:42] Gabby: Yes. But you’re still navigating the landmines of the other, the other things, foods like oats, no phthalates, like it’s just, you just start going, you know, I also have come to a place where I go, I am going to do the best I can. And what I’m going to do is try to keep my immune system as strong as possible because you can’t freak out about all this.

That doesn’t

[01:07:03] Dr. Sabine Hazan: just aggravates.

[01:07:04] Gabby: Yeah. The stress. Yeah. What, when people talk about, Oh, stress, is it the inflammation that stress, what does stress exactly do that? Can you tell, like, let’s say you have somebody who were talking, they exercise, they eat great. And you look at their microphone and you go, Whoa, but they’re an amper.

And they’re just stressed out about everything. How does that, what does that do? So

[01:07:22] Dr. Sabine Hazan: it’s, so it’s an interesting question, kind of. You know, I don’t know that I have all the answers for that, but I have some answers. Um, one of the things that if you look at stress, so you were talking about mental health before, anxiety, et cetera.

So we just published a paper, uh, a poster that we presented at the anxiety meeting and digestive disease week, where we showed a microbiome of an anxious person. Okay. Like microbiomes. of anxious people. Okay. And there is definitely a signature microbiome in those people. They’re low in bifidobacteria.

Shocking. Yeah. I mean, you would know they’re building up, you know, you’re building up stress, you’re building up acid, you’re killing your microbiome, you know, so the good bacteria is down, the bad bacteria is up. So that’s the signature that we saw in anxiety. What’s nice to see about that is when you start considering treatment for these people, like you do meditation.

There’s a great, um, there’s a great doctor that’s doing a study on meditation and the microbiome. So we’re going to see the before and after to see. Is meditation helping the microbiome? Um, you know, stress, you know, when you’re in that stressful mode, your body freezes. Oxygen doesn’t go through the whole body because you’re kind of in that, you know, um, freezing mode.

Um, you secrete acid. You’re killing your good bugs, your bad bugs are climbing up, you know, then you have a dysbiosis, viruses come in. Think about the person that’s super stressed and they let their guards down and basically get a virus and now they’re disability, they’re on disability with long haul and they used to like function.

But then now they’re, you know, like I have people that were, um, that got a complete gut dysbiosis used to be parachuting and then all of a sudden and parasailing and all that. And then all of a sudden they’re paralyzed in bed. What happened to that person? Did he kill his microbiome so much to the level of, uh, between what he took in?

and the um, and the stress level that basically killed the microbiome and got him to this level.

[01:09:27] Gabby: What does it look like? So you’re, you’re going to do a test. So you, you, you want to test all different types of people and you say, I need your, your poop. They send it to you.

[01:09:37] Dr. Sabine Hazan: Yes.

[01:09:38] Gabby: Cause I, I think it is really fascinating.

Yes. And what, what happens? It arrives, right?

[01:09:43] Dr. Sabine Hazan: So, so what do you do with it? Yeah, so it arrives. And basically we, and how long is it good for? I mean, we have a little tube where we put a liquid solution. It’s a liquid solution. We put, put a little finger, A little, uh, fingernail of poop in there. It’s not that much.

[01:10:01] Gabby: Yeah.

[01:10:01] Dr. Sabine Hazan: Um, and that tells us like, you know, millions of microbes already with just a fingernail. ’cause it’s DNA, it’s the whole DNA of the microbe. So from there we take that little stool sample. It’s in a liquid that kind of makes it like a, um, like a wax almost. Like it’s no longer. It’s no longer active.

It’s inactive. So the liquid kind of inactivates it to make it non, uh, transmittable, for example. And then from there, we bring it to the lab under, cause even though it’s inactive, we still protect ourselves and everything. And we put it under, um, you know, an anaerobic chamber essentially. And we start decomposing that liquid.

That’s stool, uh, went to what we call a library prep. Like we extract the DNA of we remove the stuff we don’t need the foods, but we just need microbes. So we extract and we create what’s called a library prep. So in other words, you know, extract the DNA, put that stool in a cartridge. with a tag to, to know which patient it is.

And then essentially we then put it through a machine. I mean, this is like the simple explanation, but this is like a one week process to two weeks. And then we put it through a machine that basically takes 36 hours to send out sequences to the cloud. And then the, the sequences get aligned. And at that point, we’re like, okay, well, we’ve got, So we have this CGG and then we’ve got this, you know, another CGG line up together and now we have a microbe that basically recognizes that, those sequences.

So and then you align all those sequences and you have a fingerprint or signature microbiome of the patient. And then from there, we can say, so all we know so far is really to look at the gut dysbiosis, the imbalance in the microbiome, which is not really defined yet. We’re going to be defining it because all this is really research.

Um, but essentially what we tell patients is, look, this is a research you’re embarking in. Um, we don’t know what we’re seeing, but we’re trying to compare you with other people like you. We’re trying to compare you with our super donors. What we believe is a super donor, right? Because and what makes a super donor, a super donor is so, you know, I always, I had these discussions with Scott Jackson at the National Institute of Standard.

I said, look, The bottom line is to understand the microbiome, you need to attain a cure. To attain a cure, you need to practice the art of medicine. So until you, because when you attain a cure, you could see the before and after. If you have a validated, verifiable, reproducible assay, you can see the before after.

Think about the person that with Tourette’s, that I found COVID in her stools. I removed COVID. I killed COVID. I increased the microbes that she was missing by knowing what to give her to increase those microbes because I’ve done the studies. And then from there, I could see, well, before she had, you know, zero bifidobacteria, for example, and then after she increased her bifidobacteria, I did something.

Not only is she improving clinically, but now I did something right. So the before and after is very important, but in order to achieve the after you need to really get a cure. So when you get that cure, you can go back and say, okay, well, what, what changed? What did I do? And that’s how you figure out the microbiome.

[01:13:34] Gabby: You

[01:13:34] Dr. Sabine Hazan: can’t figure out the microbiome by you, me comparing you to you compared to me, we’re completely different.

[01:13:41] Gabby: And you can be super healthy and I can be super healthy. Exactly. They’re completely different. Completely opposite.

[01:13:46] Dr. Sabine Hazan: And, and here’s the thing I survive at. So you look at people that You know, when you look at our data from COVID, we showed COVID in the stools, and then we showed loss of bifidobacteria in severe patients.

And then from there, we showed loss of bifidobacteria was present in Lyme disease, Crohn’s disease, invasive cancer. And so when you look at that, and you start seeing a patient that is healthy, Okay, considered healthy, but, and never got COVID and not vaccinated, but they don’t have bifidobacteria. You go, well, how come that person never got COVID

[01:14:20] Gabby: and

[01:14:20] Dr. Sabine Hazan: they don’t have bifidobacteria?

That defies what I’ve been saying, but here’s the thing. There’s other microbes that are protective. Bifidobacteria is one of the microbes that I emphasized and that I emphasize because it’s in newborns. But as we get older, there’s another microbe that comes in and says, Hey, You’re no longer a baby.

Bifidobacteria, you don’t need to drink milk because guess what? You’re no longer, you have a new microbe that you’ve inherited, that you’ve gotten, that now is making you who you are, right? So that microbe becomes your health, right? Right. So when you look at, so, and exactly that’s what happens is when you start looking at these super donors, for example, and you start seeing, okay, well, some of them have bifidobacteria and are super strong, amazing.

But then some of them have, don’t have bifidobacteria, but have another microbe that is making them amazing. You start paying attention to that microbe and then you go back to your patient population with severe COVID and you go, Interesting. Those people with severe COVID didn’t have that microbe that is resilient in that patient.

So that’s why it’s different and that’s why we’re all different. You look at the Chinese population compared to the American population. Well, they have a different microbiome. Even though, you know, all these studies in China tend to kind of try to mimic the America, If they’re not, there’s other microbes in China that are super strong, super strong for the Chinese.

When you look at the Amazon jungle, interestingly enough, they don’t have bifidobacteria. Because that’s not the one that’s going to help them. That’s not the one that’s going to help them. Because They’re, they don’t drink milk, they’re not in the jungle, they’re in the jungle, right? I mean, they’re exposed to everything that probably kills bifidobacteria, but yet they’ve adapted to that environment to survive to get micro, so they have a resilient microbiome from there.

Now, here’s the biggest thing, because everybody thinks, oh, well, then we should take the microbiome from the Amazon jungle. I remember someone calling me and wanting to make a billion dollar business out of this Oh, we should take the microbiome of the Amazon and give it to the New Yorker with Parkinson’s.

No, it may not be compatible.

[01:16:38] Gabby: That this I thought was so interesting that there, there within that, even you had to have, if you were going to get improvement. Yes. That the fecal transplant that person had that had to be compatible. Yes.

[01:16:49] Dr. Sabine Hazan: And so you asked before, why are we not doing others? Okay. Because we need really a regulatory agency that’s ethical, righteous, and basically gets us.

to do these studies. Okay, first, and it needs to be written up as a protocol, which is costly. These writers are like 300, 400 an hour, then they have to fight with the FDA. Usually I’m the one fighting with the FDA, but I did that during COVID. So it kind of killed me. So I’m taking a break from fighting with them, but I have a protocol right now.

When you talk about autism, I did the first case of familial fecal transplant for autism. And the kid was 19 years old. Uh, he was 17 when I got him and then basically we did the fecal transplant at 19. I picked the sister as his best donor because she was young. She was young. She looked like she had a good microbiome to me.

It was kind of like, you know, I think that would work. I mean, it was kind of the reason I went with familial is because I said, well, they share the same genes, the same, they should say the same environment, the same, but yet one is neurotypical. The other one is not, maybe that would be a better donor than a pharmaceutical product.

So yeah. Basically, I, I submitted that. It took us three years to do the case and 308, 000 of regulatory to push between IRB for one patient. So here I am thinking, and by the way, the kids started saying mama, baba. You know, saying sentences, communicating. He’s, he’s very good. He’s not a hundred percent.

Cause I really believe you still need to keep doing.

[01:18:21] Gabby: I was going to ask you, can you, is it a kickstart and they’re off to the races or is it sort of like, Hey, we got to tune up. Cause I mentioned that I had a friend who did it and it was sort of like four to six months and,

[01:18:33] Dr. Sabine Hazan: and, and that’s what you see, right?

You see like this improvement and then they kind of like step back. Stabilize at that level. So what we saw with that kid is he improved his ATAC scores. He improved his CARS scores, which is the marker for autism and his microbiome improved. He’s still engrafted. So we follow the microbiome to show that he matches the sister.

And that’s how we can follow these kids because the, remember you have a 17 year old, he’s missed 17 years of, of development, right? I had a little girl. Uh, it’s a beautiful case, a hundred seizures day and night. And we basically started working with her microbiome, not fecal transplant, just working with the good bugs, increasing, et cetera.

And, uh, she went from a hundred to 50 to basically improve, but we have to keep on top of her, keep on following. The key feature with that kid was really the increase in the bifidobacteria. Um, that made it possible for this kid to start. Being better, but here’s the thing. She was a year and a half in bed on medications for her seizures So she never walked.

She never talked. So now you’re improving her microbiome She’s starting to try to pick up words She’s starting to to speak and by herself She picked up like a little stroller and started walking two miles on the beach, which also helps. She knows You She needs to instinctively, this kid, this kid is the daughter of a neurosurgeon and, uh, the family’s brilliant and basically she instinctively, you could see this kid trying to come out and walking.

Now, the 17 year old never really did all those development, you know, missed a lot of steps. Like he walked a lot. He was walking, but then at two years old, he stopped talking. And that was the change that the family noticed that said, look, all of a sudden, 18 months, my kid just stopped talking and developing what happened.

And when you look at the microbiome of this kid now, In retrospect, you can kind of say, yeah, that probably he had the, you know, something killed his microbiome and he never went back up. Now, that, that was the reason that I started looking at the technology of vaccines with messenger RNA, because I said, you know what, this is an opportunity.

To answer the question once and for all, or at least start answering the question to say, do vaccines or did the me the messenger, RNA? Well, we saw messenger, RNA affected the microbiome. Mm-Hmm. . And by the way, this data, when I talk about valid verified reproducible, this data was produced in two different countries showing the same thing that we proved.

They didn’t put it in the same words because I’m more of a out there, you know up front I’m not gonna be sugarcoating anything, you know microbiome. It’s let’s talk shit Yeah, because I don’t want to sugarcoat the microbiome. I don’t want people thinking. Oh, we’re giving good advice You know, it’s a good little microbiome that we’re putting in our gut.

No, we’re talking about Shit, we’re talking about stools. We’re talking about feces from one person to another Yes, we remove the yuck component Of it right as much as possible But at the same time Please be aware that what is in your poop? is what determines your health or not. The, the shape, that’s why people are obsessed with their poop, by the

[01:22:03] Gabby: way.

Right? So, uh, I want, I just want, the other interesting thing about autistic, a lot of times with autistic children they have, uh, they’ll eat like four foods. Yes. And they’re usually foods that they like, don’t support. Uh, really diverse microbiome. So there’s sort of this really interesting circle and you can really feel for the parents because they get pulled, pulled in the circle.

The kid wants to eat a noodle, you know, sort of not foods that are hard to eat. That’s it. That’s it. You know, I think autism, you’ve talked about this. So in 1980, and it might be that it is certainly more diagnosed now. It was one in 2000, right? So let’s say it was, we, we diagnose it now 50% more at the time.

So it was only one in 1000. Right. Let’s just make it up. But you now it’s one in 40.

[01:22:52] Dr. Sabine Hazan: Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. And it’s probably gonna be in 20 years, one in one if we keep this up. That’s what I think.

[01:23:00] Gabby: Yeah,

[01:23:00] Dr. Sabine Hazan: so it’s, it’s, it’s heartbreaking. It’s criminal in my opinion that we don’t look at these kids, that we don’t ask the question of what’s happening.

You know, what’s going to happen when you have one and one kid with autism that cannot focus, that cannot, you know, that cannot speak. What kind of society do we have?

[01:23:19] Gabby: Yeah. And it’s, it’s the person that’s trapped in there because, you know, they’re not able to communicate or ask for what they want, but also the caregivers.

It is, uh, I have several friends. It’s hard. It’s a, it’s a, it’s a lot of work. And, um, it, yeah, it’s, it’s, I find this part so interesting where everyone’s just sort of, have we accepted it or it’s like, normalizing it. Yeah,

[01:23:48] Dr. Sabine Hazan: we’re normalizing too much. I think, I think we need to start helping. We need to start helping these moms that have a hard time with these kids.

And by the way, there is a spectrum, right? I mean, there’s, there’s, we’re not talking about the kids that are basically the, that are on the spectrum that are just repeating certain movements and certain sentences constantly. We’re talking about the kids that are basically. not speaking, banging their head, banging their head, banging their teeth.

This kid came to me, why I spent and we have a nonprofit, um, the microbiome research foundation, um, which is basically how we raise money, you know, and we have a lot of people, thank God for Malibu donors, you know, that donate to the foundation. And that’s how that case was made possible. But we spent 308, 000 to see one case for one kid.

to see what was going on there. And the reason I took on this case was because the kid came into my office, banged his head and was breaking his teeth. And he was tall enough that he could lift up a toilet and get it out of the, you know, out of the floor. The parents were not sleeping at night. They were taking turns of watching this kid.

Right. And then so, and he was on a lot of medications to kind of like calm down the system. Right. And so what happened was when we So the first thing that we noticed in this kid was how much calmer he became, how he could sleep through the night, how the parents could now go on vacation and leave him with the nanny.

That’s huge. So if we only accomplished that, obviously we accomplished a lot more, but if we only accomplished that for half the population that is like this kid. Wow, we’ve like remove the stress in the family. Because remember, the stress in the family is now contagious. You have a kid that’s like jumping and banging his head.

The sister is watching that now she’s getting stressed and she’s killing her gut. The parents are watching that that’s stressful. The marriage is stressful. The father goes to work now he’s stressed. He’s not doing a good job. You know, action lead to a reaction.

[01:26:00] Gabby: Yeah.

[01:26:01] Dr. Sabine Hazan: We need to stop the action. And, and in order for the, to stop the reaction, we really do.

[01:26:08] Gabby: Do you have a habit that you used to do that through all of this discovery, either lifestyle pattern or habit that you used to do that you’ve said, Hey, this isn’t good for my gut. Yes. And I’m going to stop doing this.

[01:26:23] Dr. Sabine Hazan: Yeah. And actually the best person I’ve got to tell you is probably my husband. Uh, you know, I used to.

I’m very passionate. Really? Yeah. So I’m very passionate. And I’m, you know, when you, when you trigger me, it’s not going to be a pretty picture. And I used to be so my husband and I, when we used to get into arguments, uh, we, you know, it was heated and it’s no longer heated anymore because I’m like, um, it’s not worth killing my microbiome because my husband didn’t organize his closet, for example, you know, so.

I’ve changed my, my behavior. And in fact, you’ll ask my, ever since I’ve discovered the importance of the microbiome, of a healthy microbiome, I don’t stress myself that much. Part of the reason that I, you know, my angst or actually my, You know, I, after COVID and all the stress of the pandemic and the stress of, of being censored and the stress of not doing the clinical trials the way they should have been done, the stress of dealing with the FDA, the stress of, you know, back and forth, you know, my level of, you know, Motivation, my, my angst that whatever you call it, that like was driving me to like wake up in the morning and fight with the FDA to get a protocol approved is kind of like, ah, is it worth it?

You know what I mean? And now I’m more about, you know, let me have, let me calmly discuss this rather than going at them with. Hey, you didn’t do this, this and that. Believe me, I can get there. Like I’m, I’m the person that’s like, you know, but I think I’m more calm.

[01:28:09] Gabby: Do you feel optimistic? Uh, because I do think as, as bad and damaging as COVID was, people, kids not going to school and people losing their jobs and all, and even the kind of inner fighting that we’ve had.

Yes. I also feel like it’s revealed quite a lot of things that have actually, that make me more hopeful. That, uh, people like you who are real doctors are going to say, Hey, let’s look at the whole system, our food system, our medical system, you know, the medicines, all these things. Are you, are you hopeful that you know, we’re going to be able to move this more into the preventative side of things.

So if you have your research, right, you say, Hey, you can take these, eat this way and do these things, you might, it will participate in hopefully avoiding certain things. Are you more hopeful? Are you, or you think we have a ways to go?

[01:29:05] Dr. Sabine Hazan: I think we have a ways to go still, but I am hopeful. I’ll tell you, you know, I think there, I feel, and call it a gut feeling, but I feel like there’s a turn where people are waking up and saying, is it worth me?

getting stressed about this transaction that I’m going to make and therefore, yes, I’m going to make a lot of money, but then I’m going to kill myself, right? And then what am I going to do with the money? Nobody can fix me at that point. You know, think about what we talked about fecal transplants, super expensive to consider even doing it for any disease.

So the best thing is to really prevent the disease. I think we’re, we’re living in a world now where people are I think COVID woke up a lot of people to being more health conscious. Um, and to kind of say, you know, we’re only living once. And maybe we should start thinking about how do we, you know, increase our life.

And you, you’ve learned from COVID that you cannot trust your, you know, what you hear in the media. You cannot trust necessarily your agencies to give you the right information. You cannot trust your president to give you the right information.

[01:30:21] Gabby: Yeah.

[01:30:22] Dr. Sabine Hazan: You know, because the information was, you know, was given in such a way that you thought, well, yeah, I’m going to get vaccinated and I’m not going to get COVID.

And then all of a sudden you got COVID, right? So, so there was a, there were a lot of confusion to the public that the public is, I think now starting to wake up to see, Hey, how come certain people are fine through COVID, especially doctors like myself, you know, et cetera. How come they’re still okay? You know, um, I think there’s going to be an awakening.

I think there’s going to be more of a, a peaceful, I want to say, I think the planet’s going to kind of settle. They’re going to have to write, right? Because ultimately this, this discovery of bifidobacteria, we’re seeing it disappear. And with the disappearance of bifidobacteria is the disappearance of humanity, in my opinion, you know, when you think about.

Um, you know, microbes that are so important in absorption of sugar, for example, and then you lose them, you know, what happens to your Krebs cycles? What happens to your to your Krebs cycle? What happens to your mitochondria, right? So I think the You the shortage, the disappearance of good microbes, the knowledge that, hey, you can’t just take a probiotic to replenish them.

It’s not going to work because it’s going to bypass the stomach and the majority of them are not real. And then, you know, is it the right probiotic for you, for your race, for your person, where you came from? So I think, you know, that’s, That makes people start saying, you know, maybe I shouldn’t, I should be more questioning of what’s out there to allow myself to live a little bit longer on the planet.

Yeah. And I think health is going to take a priority over you know, the rest of the superfluous things that

[01:32:17] Gabby: exist in our life. Health will be more valuable than money, you think? Yeah, I think so. Oh,

[01:32:22] Dr. Sabine Hazan: well, I personally think, let me tell you, a resilient microbiome is worth more than gold. Yeah, no kidding. A golden poop.

I mean,

[01:32:32] Gabby: let’s talk about that. What you talk about shape and color, like when you receive a sample and you go, Oh, this person is not, they’re not doing good. Can you tell them right away? I

[01:32:41] Dr. Sabine Hazan: can’t really tell. I mean. Maybe but really because they’re in that liquid. Yeah, you can’t really tell till you look at it.

But once you look at it,

[01:32:48] Gabby: what shows up that’s like if someone looked in their toilet, because they’re trying to pay attention. So a couple things when you look at your toilet is the size of the poop. I know it’s kind of was

[01:32:58] Dr. Sabine Hazan: no, it’s like, well, you want to have a good lump, right? A good, you know, a good solid bowel movement.

[01:33:05] Gabby: Does it mean anything if you do one bowel movement that’s really long versus like two during the day that are Compile. Well, as long

[01:33:13] Dr. Sabine Hazan: as it’s same thing for you. I mean, as long it’s normal for you. Okay. So it’s, so you wanna

[01:33:16] Gabby: have a lot of poop is what you’re saying.

[01:33:18] Dr. Sabine Hazan: You wanna have a good DC I heard, I heard a foot.

You don’t wanna have like a, well, I mean 12 inches, you know, uh, probably the four. The, you know, it would be nice, I mean, there’s. You know, when you see that, you’re like, wow, jackpot, I just flushed a million dollars right there. I was joking with my staff at the surgical center the other day and basically that’s what I said.

It was like, oh, today was just a, I flushed a million dollars. So, so basically the value of poop, of good microbes, of microbiome is really important. Priceless. I mean, that’s, we’re going to come to find out that in the future, that’s going to be like

[01:33:57] Gabby: water, clean water, clean air. And then finding fertility, I think is going to be really valuable.

[01:34:04] Dr. Sabine Hazan: Good, good microbes allow. Yeah.

[01:34:09] Gabby: Fertility. I mean, I think good sperm. Good. I mean, all that’s going to become really valuable now we’re moving into good poop. Okay. Is it? So the length, should it feel effortless? I’m not saying effortless, hopefully

[01:34:20] Dr. Sabine Hazan: without a smell, uh, non floating. Uh, you know, non floating, non float.

What

[01:34:25] Gabby: does floating show?

[01:34:26] Dr. Sabine Hazan: Well, flowing is usually like you’re malabsorbing, you’re not absorbing. So it’s

[01:34:30] Gabby: almost like an airy, too airy, not dense, not nutrient dense.

[01:34:34] Dr. Sabine Hazan: That usually could be like a pancreatic problem. Okay. You probably want to, you know, alert your doctor if you have that, or something you’re eating that’s allowing.

So, you know, definitely something to look at blood in the stools is never a good thing. So definitely alert your GI doctor change from the normal, right? So there are some people that are, you know, I don’t really talk about the frequency of the bowel movement because people tend to think, oh, well, I need to evacuate every day.

No, you don’t. There’s people that don’t evacuate every day and have a perfect microbiome. Um, I think. I think it’s really what you’ve adapted to yourself, right? Um, and, you know, eventually we’re going to start seeing, you know, look, we’ve looked at, you know, some centenaries, etc. microbiome. So we’re going to kind of compare the differences, etc.

But we’re not there yet. But this is all the beginning of research.

[01:35:28] Gabby: And can you imagine if you were 25? And I would fast forward and say, you know what you’re going to be doing? And you met with your medical, all your schooling, and all of this stuff you were doing?

[01:35:39] Dr. Sabine Hazan: Don’t even get me there. They used to call me Gucci girl in the GI lab, because if there was poop in the colon, I would say I’m out Transcribed Reprep, bring back the patient the next day.

I would not even touch it. And then, and even like You know, years and years ago, Neil Stallman, who basically brought me into this path, he’s one of the reviewers on the book, he basically said to me, you know, the future isn’t shit. And I said, please don’t make me play with it, please. And here I am. And here you are.

And I, you know, I can’t even tell my mom, you know, I mean, I do tell my mom, I tell her, but you don’t want to break her heart. She sees how passionate I am about this. But she, you know. I really, I wake up every morning. I’m like, I can’t believe I’m spending money on Anna. You know what? These stool samples are expensive.

Yeah. It’s like a couple thousand dollars. So when we do a study of looking at the microbiome of. Um, of long COVID or, or people before and after the vaccine, you know, that’s 100, 000 to 200, 000 study when you do before and after vitamin C, that’s 100, 000 to 200, 000 study. So, you know, money has no meaning anymore to me except for paying research.

Get it done. Yeah. Someone gave me a purse, uh, the other day and I think it was like a Valentino as a gift because I saved, I helped her kid, right? And the whole time I’m looking at the person, I go, can we exchange that and give the funding to the foundation? Because I just don’t want that, you know, I, I want the value to be used wisely.

Um, you know, so that’s where my brain is like, so money, you know, it’s great, you know, you could use it for fun things, et cetera, but it It’s not as valuable to me as the, the quest for knowledge.

[01:37:27] Gabby: Yeah. And

[01:37:27] Dr. Sabine Hazan: that, at this point in my life, that’s where I’m at. I’m at the point where, you know, I’ve traveled around the world.

I mean, I live in Malibu and I have the cars and all that. It’s about making a difference. It’s about changing lives, changing the world. And I think really the microbiome has a huge role, you know, think about countries that are fighting. I mean, are they? What are they doing to their nutrition that maybe they’re so angry about something?

Can we change that nutrition to make them happier? You know, when you look at someone, you do fecal transplant that is depressed and you take a person that is happy and you give it. And I had that patient, I had a suicidal patient, psoriasis, chronic UTI, C. diff. And I gave him an English professor who was, um, drank orange juice like crazy.

Was happy yoga, you know, amazing. And the guy was no longer suicidal. He used to come so grumpy in my office and he’s like flying. Like he’s like, doc, I’m like craving orange juice. And so, and by the way, it was so funny because this guy, when we did his initial fecal transplant, his wife didn’t. It didn’t latch, like it didn’t, they didn’t like each other.

They weren’t compatible.

[01:38:42] Gabby: Yeah.

[01:38:42] Dr. Sabine Hazan: And then I used this English professor, which I got from University of Minnesota, Alex Karutz, who’s one of my biome squad doctors, who’s basically has a fecal bank. And I said, Oh my God, you cured my, my patient with your poop that you gave me. He goes, yeah, she’s a happy English professor.

So I’m like, Can I get more of that? Like, no, she stopped donating. So, but here’s a guy that was grumpy, suicidal, psoriasis, C diff, chronic UTI. Wow. I mean, and to the point that like he survived COVID, he did great.

[01:39:17] Gabby: So could it be that like someone takes a round of antibiotics? Let’s say they grew up in a stressful house.

Yeah. Maybe someone’s abusive, even if it’s just, you know, yelling, then maybe they some, who knows they happen or they have to get antibiotics that can literally put you behind the eight ball cannon.

[01:39:34] Dr. Sabine Hazan: Yes. And here’s the thing, right? So. And I tell this because sometimes obviously, you know, things don’t work out.

Sure. You know, and as we try to manipulate the microbiome and we give these substances to increase bifidobacteria. or to decrease the bad microbes to kind of readjust. I call it the art of refloralization, right? Refloralization is like putting good microbes back and kind of adjusting the microbiome, right?

Sometimes it doesn’t work because exactly like you said, they were in a traumatic area. And unfortunately, if you traumatize a child and that trauma is in the brain, so that becomes primary. feeding the gut.

[01:40:14] Gabby: Got it.

[01:40:15] Dr. Sabine Hazan: And, and this is why it’s not just about microbes. When you look at Alzheimer’s, for example, or autism, is it the microbiome causing the dysbiosis or is it the dysbiosis caused by something that happened in the nerve, in the brain, in the nerve connection or the brain?

Right? Right. So I think we have to start thinking of disease as For example, Alzheimer’s. Is it the brain brain primary? Is it the connection primary, or is it the gut primary? Because it’s a highway and it’s a two lane, you know, back and forth, and these microbes are traveling from the gut up and down the nerve to the brain.

And so if they get stuck somewhere in the brain, then that’s gonna cause a problem. But if you start off with the trauma. That’s hard to fix. And this is why when you look at medicine, it’s not just, hey, GI is going to fix everything. No, GI is only fixing the optimization of the gut.

[01:41:14] Gabby: Right.

[01:41:14] Dr. Sabine Hazan: GI is only fixing the inflammation of the gut.

The Crohn’s disease, for example, however way we fix it, right? But ultimately if the patient has a psychiatric problem that needs to be dealt with a psychiatrist. If the patient has a neural, you know, Neurological problem that needs to be dealt with a neurologist, you know, that’s why I work with, you know, Dr.

Jordan in the Regenesis project. Um, you know, we have a scientist on board. We have him. He’s a top neurologist and we’re doing, he’s doing the micro, the, he’s doing the brain. And I’m doing the gut and together we meet and we say, okay, you know what the patient got up to this point, but then he fixed the brain because he’s an interventional neurologist.

So I think eventually that’s what it’s going to be, but you know, the fields need to speak to each other. And here’s the problem when you have that 10 minutes with insurance. It’s not covered. You don’t have time to call the neurologist. You barely have time to cover your own practice. So we need to step back a little bit and say, you know what, maybe the answer is, hey, I’m Maybe I, I start paying for these services to have my doctor speak to my other doctor, not count on the insurance company.

That’s going to help you because they’re not, you know, the insurance company is going to do the cheapest thing for you. Think about, you know, and, and they’re not, they’re a huge roadblock on a lot of times, you know, think about how much time my staff spends to just get an, a CAT scan approved for a patient that has weight loss.

I mean, it’s ridiculous, weight loss. The patient should go directly to the CAT scan. I shouldn’t have to call the medical director of the insurance company to approve the CAT scan to begin with. These are the problems that need to be fixed. And then on top of that, you want your doctor to act like, you know, a soldier to try something.

Well, don’t make it hard on him by threatening to sue him because he’s not gonna go the extra mile to help you if he feels threatened, right? Because ultimately He’s not gonna take

[01:43:23] Gabby: any risk or do something different.

[01:43:25] Dr. Sabine Hazan: Why did the majority of physicians not give hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin? Yeah.

Well, because they didn’t want to lose their license because there is a high liability in this country that if So I did my research and I wrote the protocol that the FDA approved on hydroxychloroquine and we got an approval by the FDA. So when the Department of Health comes into my office and says, Dr.

Hazen, why are you treating, you know, COVID patients? And they did, you know, I could say, well, first of all, why are you in my office? It’s jurisdiction of the FDA. And I wrote a whole protocol that got me to approve writing this drug for my patients, right? Um, the common, the regular physician does not know how to write a protocol, does not know how to submit a protocol to the FDA to protect themselves.

So when I stepped in to the fire and I started going on Twitter with my oxygen saturations at 70 percent and then the patient goes up to 93 percent or 98 percent and I say treatment works, I did that to sound, to basically say, Hey, I’m trying to save people. Doctors, wake up, I’m doing the clinical trials and I’m giving you the information because it’s going to take me five years to write the data.

I mean, think about how much data we have to write.

[01:44:43] Gabby: Do we think AI could help you with that eventually? Maybe?

[01:44:47] Dr. Sabine Hazan: Maybe. The problem with AI is right now the data is very, uh, you know, what does AI count on? They count on Google.

[01:44:55] Gabby: Pre existing information. Pre existing.

[01:44:57] Dr. Sabine Hazan: If you look at the microbiome space, for example.

It’s all 90 percent of the data on the microbiome is flawed.

[01:45:04] Gabby: Yeah.

[01:45:05] Dr. Sabine Hazan: That means 10%. So AI is going to look at the microbiome space and go, and write my paper on Parkinson’s and say, well, doctor, he’s in found all these microbes, but they don’t match what’s written out there because what’s written out there is done on mice and mice do not match the microbiome of human beings.

So it’s a challenge.

[01:45:26] Gabby: Is this, you know, I know so many young adults, especially that have all food allergies. Yes. Um, I, I mean, it feels like the gut. Uh, obviously leaky gut or something like that has really is the kind of culprit.

[01:45:42] Dr. Sabine Hazan: Uh, yeah, yeah, I mean, that’s what we’re starting to see, but I mean, that needs

[01:45:46] Gabby: to because that’s everywhere.

People, I, you know, they’re gluten intolerant, celiac sprue,

[01:45:50] Dr. Sabine Hazan: celiac sprue is huge. I mean, I have. Uh, you know, Celiac is definitely huge and, and, and not only Celiac, Lactose intolerance is huge. Yeah. You know, is it because we’re lacking microbes and therefore we can’t absorb, um, or diabetes in young kids is huge, is, is climbing.

Is it because we’ve lost the microbes that are absorbing, helping us absorb the sugar? You know, does it start with the microbes first? We’ve been looking at the cellular level. Maybe we should start looking at the microbes. Maybe we should look at the, what are those microbes secreting? You know, what are, you know, so I think all that this is the future.

So, you know, I think the change in the world is if people want to heal, they can’t interfere. There cannot be an interference of research and science. If we want to survive the next pandemic, there needs to be people coming from both sides. from all sides that have a different narrative, that have a different, that see something different.

Think about it. I saw the microbiome. That’s why I spoke out. That’s why I came out. How come you weren’t afraid to come out? You know, as much as I have this love hate relationship with the FDA, I mean, the FDA does follow me and they do respect me. I really believe that the NIH, there’s a lot of scientists that do respect me in the NIH.

There’s a lot of, and there’s a lot of great scientists at the NIH. There’s a lot of great scientists at the FDA, data and studies that never make it to the media because it’s not a product, but there’s a lot of great research that’s been done over the years. I have respect for those people. They have respect for me.

It’s mutual. I have a lot of doctors in academia also that respect me. You know, I think I was not afraid because I believe in God to begin with, and I really believe that he put me on this path. He trained me, you know, I mean, think about all the roadblocks I’ve had in my life. I mean, I’ve definitely put myself in a lot of problem, problematic situations.

You know, I say it in my book, um, where, and in fact, my husband wrote my biography because he knows, like I, I was the girl that would always like. defy the, you know, I was kind of defiant, right? Like, no, this is not this way. So I’m going to do this way, but I didn’t do it the right way to get this way. Right.

So I learned how to, if I want to get things done, I need to do it following the regulations, you know, and, and it’s something that as physicians, it’s hard to, you know, there’s been a lot, there were a lot of doctors that treated that are like, why is the government telling me how to treat I need to be treating the patients.

This is my, and they did what they should have done, which is treating and stepping up, right? Right. And I think they don’t know it, but they got a lot of the respect from a lot of the agents on the field, uh, for doing that because they defied. in that defines. But at the same time, if you want the science to move a certain way, you’ve got to go by the regulations.

You’ve got to do the legwork. That’s why pharma leads, is because they are doing it the right way with the FDA, with the regulatory agencies. They’re playing with everybody. Yeah, of course. They have, you know, well, yeah,

[01:49:01] Gabby: they’re definitely, yeah, but they’ve

[01:49:02] Dr. Sabine Hazan: got the money. I was gonna say they have the money.

Yeah. So, um, But I never really believed like, you know, I was never the person that was scared of like, oh my God, I’m going against pharma and they’re going to come after me because guess what? A lot of patients in pharma, a lot of executives at pharma are my patients. You know, a lot of, you know, people at the FBI are my patients.

You know, I’ve got like patients from a whole realm, you know, as a Malibu physician. You have there. You know, as a girl, that’s basically expertise in the microbiome. Yeah. It doesn’t help you if you’re attacking the research that could help you.

[01:49:37] Gabby: Yeah,

[01:49:37] Dr. Sabine Hazan: you know, so

[01:49:38] Gabby: Yeah, well,

fermented foods, you hear this over and over. Yes. Is this a is this futile? Or is it silly? Or is it like a real thing? Does it real? Is it? Is it a booster?

[01:49:52] Dr. Sabine Hazan: No, I think if you look at what ivermectin is, it’s a fermented product of a bacteria. So I think there’s something there. You know, I think it’s the products that are probably feeding these microbes.

Um, but it

[01:50:06] Gabby: doesn’t hurt. Did you wait? I feel like did we talk about natto kinese? No, we didn’t talk about that. Okay. So not tell the food. One of my daughters loves it. It’s, I think you have to be born eating it. Um, but they, that was sort of one of the things during COVID it was like, Oh, not, or to deal with maybe the spike protein or long haul or what have you, not token ease.

Um, did you mess around with that at all?

[01:50:29] Dr. Sabine Hazan: I haven’t, I, I’m very skeptical of products because here’s the thing I always worry about like the quality of the product, how, you know, the concept of, of fermented soybean is definitely a good concept, whether it goes from the fermentation of soybean to a capsule that becomes the fermented product of soybean or did it become infected along the line and what is that doing to my gut, you know, so.

I tend not to be a pill pusher, more of a natural food, make it, make your yogurt, make your, you know, make your, your, uh, fermented soybeans, make your sauerkraut, you know, learn about the foods, learn about, you know, get into the, go outside, go into the ground and start touching the earth and be. one with the environment, you know, that’s, that’s the best advice.

I

[01:51:23] Gabby: think people never, I remember when I was becoming a mother, and we’re talking about nursing, and they said, well, if you’re here, then your milk will be, you know, filled with certain microbes and different bacteria, but if you take a trip and you and your baby fly and you go halfway around the world, um, then your milk will modify to that environment for your child a little bit.

Like it won’t be exactly the same if you’re living in a different environment, you’ll, your body will adapt a little bit.

[01:51:54] Dr. Sabine Hazan: Right. Well, I mean, you know, breast milk is really protein, right? And so it’s, and, and. Um, I don’t think that there’s so much microbes to change it. Yeah. I think it’s not about the microbes in the breast milk.

I think it’s really about the protein. Yeah. So when you think about like these. you know, there’s a whole big science behind peptides, right? Yeah. What do, what do peptides do? And what do these peptides feed? Which microbes, right? Those are the substance. Those are the, the secretions. The, those are the, the, the by product essentially.

Um, so I think it’s the same thing with breast milk. I think it’s just a compound that is enriching the breast. the microbiome hopping, but at the same time, it is not microbes. Got it. So, and it’s the same thing with when you give a kid sugar or sugar water, right? That substance is feeding a microbe, right?

Just when whatever you’re giving your body, you’re feeding microbes for

[01:52:55] Gabby: them

[01:52:56] Dr. Sabine Hazan: to secrete substances to do whatever you need to do. So I think that’s the future. That’s how we’re going to start looking at the microbiome in my opinion and looking at this What do microbes secrete? What microbe is linked with another microbe to do something?

What microbe is parasitic to another microbe and what microbe is symbiotic to another microbe? You know and what happens when you kill off a group, you know of Clostridium Do you allow the, the one with C. diff and the toxin to, to flourish and to increase? you know, toxins. So I think that’s what we see, you know, is, is basically that relationship between microbes that that’s going to be the future.

And I think the future is also going to be more precision medicine to understand the combination of these microbes together to fix diseases. So that would be amazing. Yeah. Not just taking poop, but saying like, Hey, you’ve got These microbes that are overgrown and you’ve got these microbes that and that’s the that’s the science that I’m really directing right now That’s what I’m seeing.

You know, I showed you the case of a patient with cancer I wanted to ask you about that. So can you how did that? Well, this is a guy that we tested his microbiome and he was missing All his good microbes and he had a lot of bad microbes and had a huge tumor in his neck, and basically

[01:54:24] Gabby: huge, by the way.

[01:54:25] Dr. Sabine Hazan: Huge saw. I saw an image. You saw picture. Yeah.

[01:54:27] Gabby: Yeah.

[01:54:27] Dr. Sabine Hazan: So, you know, and slowly, slowly with the right protocol, you know, to increase the good ones, to decrease the bad ones. We’re trying to modulate the microbiome in a way to improve the cancer, right? So think about what cancer is and I think the future with cancer is gonna be you give the chemotherapy to kill the tumor But then at the same time you optimize the gut to survive because listen you have a big tumor And, um, you know, this guy didn’t want chemotherapy, so he was basically dying and, you know, I have the expertise of people that are like the worst of the worst to come to my clinic.

Uh, but I, you know, it’s very stressful, so I’m kind of like limiting my worst of my worst. But essentially, um, this guy came to me, um, and, you know, he was dying and I just said, look, we have nothing to lose. Lets just try these products and I tried a bunch of products on him, kind of consortium of products.

Are these supplements or pharma or is it a combination? I cant really discuss because I just dont want to

[01:55:31] Gabby: be in

[01:55:31] Dr. Sabine Hazan: it. Youre not, you dont want to have people messing around with it. Yeah, yeah, but basically what I did and then people like and influencing a world that is, you know, so new right now.

[01:55:42] Gabby: Yeah, gotcha.

[01:55:43] Dr. Sabine Hazan: And so, Yeah. Cool. So, what I did was really follow this microbiome testing to kind of say, okay, well, am I increasing the goods, the good guys? Am I decreasing the bad guys? And I’d started seeing that I’m like, okay, well, we’re doing that. So we’re going to continue doing. How much

[01:55:57] Gabby: did you test every two weeks, a week or something like that?

So we were testing

[01:56:01] Dr. Sabine Hazan: every week closely, which is expensive, but basically we were testing every week. And then we started seeing, Hey, you know what? Something’s happening. And so that became, that becomes a formula, right? And so it happens that, you know, the guy who is helping me with some of the products, um, you know, has been doing clinical trials.

You know, a lot of people that I work with have been the innovators in medicine. You know, they’ve been the ones that, you know, did that innovated the clinical trial to give it to me to do the clinical trial on my patients. So they were behind the IP, the patent, they were the inventor, if you want. So a lot of these inventors during COVID have reached out to me.

You know, you talk about someone like Robert Clancy, who’s You know, in my opinion is like the father of immunity, you know, he’s very good friends with with Dr. Fauci and during the pandemic, actually, those two talk together. Well, Dr. Clancy was on one of my papers where I treated hypoxic patients. with combination therapy and Dr, Dr.

Clancy and I are working together because he knows the immunity at the cellular level. I know the microbiome level, right? So here’s a guy who’s been behind a lot of brilliant innovations. Um, I’m working with him to kind of figure out something for asthma and COPD. So it’s beautiful to have been in this space for three decades because I got to meet a lot of the inventors, a lot of the innovators.

And it’s interesting because it’s the same innovators that basically a lot of them were questioning what’s going on, right? I mean, when you think about Pfizer, right, and what happened with the vaccine, even the people at Pfizer didn’t know what the hell was going on, right? They’re I don’t understand.

This is not This is not how research and clinical trials are, are done, right? So when a kid, you know, if there’s a question of a kid being hurt by a vaccine, the first thing you do is you investigate. You do a serious adverse event. You call the FDA, you investigate and you say, yes, it’s from the vaccine.

No, it’s not. There’s been so much. It’s almost like there’s an entire group. force behind the pharmaceutical company suppressing, you know,

[01:58:23] Gabby: it’s, it’s, it is almost like that. Yeah.

[01:58:25] Dr. Sabine Hazan: And, and I said that, you know, cause I spoke, you know, with Senator Johnson at a hearing, and he said to me, what do you think happened with this pandemic?

And I said, you know, the price of a stock mattered more than the price of a life.

[01:58:40] Gabby: Yeah.

[01:58:41] Dr. Sabine Hazan: And I mean that because the problem is you have When you have, when you’re going to make money from a stock, are you going to really question the science? Are you going to really question the, the stock itself? No, you’re making money, right?

And now when you open the ability to, to the stock market, to the FDA agents, who are supposed to be watching that, and now FDA agents are basically have incentive because they’re making money. Are they really going to look at that? That’s, and that’s the hardest thing to do. Even me, like in my field, I always question myself.

I like, you’ll never, you’ll never hear me. This is it. Like my brother was joking and he goes, is it all about bifidobacteria for you? And I’m like, well, right now that’s my hypothesis, right? But I could be wrong, right? But that’s what

[01:59:32] Gabby: research is, right? It’s you’re failing over and over and over. Um, Okay. So me

[01:59:37] Dr. Sabine Hazan: wrong.

That’s it.

[01:59:38] Gabby: I, uh, and I, I really appreciate that because the patience to, to sort of dive in and be like, this is it. And now this is it to continue down. So I, I just want to, um, slowly start to move. Let’s talk about your, uh, your event. Yes. That you’re having. And that, by the way, if people don’t can’t come to Malibu, they live in a different country.

Maybe share with us why you’re doing it. And

[02:00:06] Dr. Sabine Hazan: I want to educate people. So these are, so the first, there’s so much noise out there on microbiome and marketing on probiotic, prebiotic, what probiotic, what prebiotic to take. I started the Malibu microbiome meeting really to educate the public to be vigilant, right?

And to, and I brought in this, I call them the biome squad, but really the really academic physicians that have really written. So much data, you know, think about how did we get to the microbiome if not for C. diff and fecal transplant, right? So, Tom Barotti, you know, is one of those, you know, Neil Stolman is another one, Colleen Kelly, Jessica Allegretti, Zane Kassam, Paul Fierstadt, Alex Kurotz, all these people have really led us into this field.

When you look at a case of alopecia areata, Two cases of alopecia areata from Dr. Colleen Kelly and they grew hair after fecal transplant. You have to ask, what is growing hair, right? I mean, that was another interest of mine other than Alzheimer’s. So I’m like, wow, I’ve got a lot of hair. I’m sure I’ve got that microbe plenty.

Maybe I can make a shampoo out of that right as a joke but you know that was kind of like at the beginning I was like I wonder what grows hair. So these people have like started the data they started the research and basically they I brought them on this platform to kind of say okay well let’s meet once a year.

Mm

[02:01:37] Gabby: hmm.

[02:01:37] Dr. Sabine Hazan: And each one of you, it happens that this year, a lot of them, you know, the first year we had the all star team. We had Paul Fjerstad, Colleen Kelly, Mimi Wang from MD Anderson. Paul, um, we had, uh, uh, Sahil Khanna from Mayo Clinic, Neil Stolman. Uh, we had Alex Kourouz from Minnesota. We had Scott Jackson from, Scott Jackson has been on all the meetings for the last four years from the National Institute of Standards because he brings the level of the government like, well, this is where we’re at in validating your stool sample, right?

Because ultimately. And I met with the National Institute of Standard and, you know, ultimately, they’re the ones validating me. They’re the ones that are going to say, yeah, your stool sample is good or not. But here’s the thing, I’m on the clinical side, right? I’m doing the clinical trials. So, that brings something to the platform that they didn’t have initially.

Uh, so, you know, that relationship How long do you guys get together for? So it’s eight hour meeting. It’s basically eight speakers.

[02:02:40] Gabby: Mm-Hmm. .

[02:02:40] Dr. Sabine Hazan: Um, and, um, each one, so this year we have Neil Stallman, we have myself. I talk about where we are at in the microbiome space, presenting certain cases like this case.

What did I do with that case? Just to educate the doctors. It’s mostly for doctors. There’s CME. you know, there’s CME validation so they get CMEs, which is continuing medical education, credits, which is important for maintaining your license. So, and then also non physicians people that are in the medical field that want to invest in new products.

Think about the medical field. Probiotic companies that are like, well, how do I make my probiotic better? So it sticks because i’m noticing it’s not really doing what it’s supposed to do People that are selling yogurts with probiotics people that are selling like drinks or probiotics could educate themselves on How do I make what substance should I remove from my drink to make the drink better, right?

So that’s the second, um, you know arm and then the people the people that are like Seeking fecal transplant, for example. You know, we get phone calls in my office every day. We get like thousands emails every day of people wanting fecal transplant, and of course it’s not there yet. Yeah, the science is not there.

So it’s important for them to understand what it takes. How do we need to get there? We need a diagnostic tool that basically tells us, yes, this is a perfect microbiome. Yes, this is engraftment. Yes, this is matching the patient, the donor. Yes, it doesn’t have these microbes. And so, you know, there’s a, we’re a long way from all that.

And plus we got to publish all that data. to advance the science. So where will they,

[02:04:16] Gabby: where will they go if they wanted to see it online? First,

[02:04:19] Dr. Sabine Hazan: www. malibumicrobiomeeting. com.

[02:04:23] Gabby: And then if they want to buy tickets, is

[02:04:25] Dr. Sabine Hazan: there’s a virtual site so they can buy, we’ll send them the whole link to the meeting.

[02:04:28] Gabby: Okay.

[02:04:29] Dr. Sabine Hazan: We’re trying to make it, you know, it’s Malibu, you know, the Wi Fi here, it’s horrible. So if the Wi Fi, you know, doesn’t sustain it, we will send them the whole video. It’s always better. Will this be

[02:04:40] Gabby: evergreen living somewhere that someone, if they through you could get access to it? So it’ll be

[02:04:45] Dr. Sabine Hazan: on the Malibu microbiome meeting.

I recommend people to, you know, the last four meetings we, you know, because I’m so busy with research, I don’t really have time to kind of put all these videos. Um, eventually we will put them together. on and people can access them. But I think this is a good opportunity for those that are local in Malibu to at least come, especially if you have a problem, especially if you’re in interested in in the research, you’re interested in meeting the people.

So Scott Jackson is one, uh, Lee Frame is going to be talking about functional medicine and nutrition and how to optimize your gut. Um, Who else? Um, uh, uh, Sheldon Jordan, who’s the head neurologist, who’s gonna be talking about hacking the hypothalamus and what we do to improve the brain in order for the gut to, to improve.

Um, Dr. Sasha Bisky, who’s like the top psychiatrist, U-C-L-A-U-S-C, basically, um, is gonna be talking about mental health and the microbiome. Yeah. Um, I can’t wait

[02:05:45] Gabby: to hear the data on the phone. Yeah. And the impact on the microbiome. And those

[02:05:50] Dr. Sabine Hazan: are the, that’s why it’s important to kind of be there. Yeah. To talk to them, because this is an opportunity that these guys are not all together.

Ever. Ever. And so, you know, you have an opportunity to meet them, you know, face to face and ask those questions and say, well, what do you do? You know, for example, Dr. Bistritzky is working on a new device, which is a fascinating device, which is an ultrasound device for the brain to decrease anxiety.

Absolutely. Absolutely. So imagine if it was that simple, you know, we’re working together on frequency and the frequency on the microbiome and what is that doing to appease, you know, because think about, we talked about stress, but what about music? What about, you know, is there a certain type of music that affects your microbiome and gets you to be a certain way?

[02:06:37] Gabby: Yeah.

[02:06:37] Dr. Sabine Hazan: You know, the 1980s, if you look at how we were raised, I mean, we had that fresh milk, but also the music was, relatively innocent, kind of up, up, upbeat, loving pink collars, you know, it was all colorful, you know, the that was

[02:06:55] Gabby: so we were latchkey kids. Yeah, we were negligent parents, but we had happy music.

We had happy music. We were resilient. Well, think about frequency develop in these conversations I have, I can tell you every One out of 10 conversations talks about vibration and frequency. And if we want to get all down into it, energy and frequency, I would imagine, I mean, it’s everything. Okay. And ending this, I just want to remind people, um, let’s talk shit.

And there’s still so many interesting things that we didn’t get to talk about today. Just how there’s anaerobic and aerobic bacteria. Um, they’re the difference, you know, bacteria and viruses. I think that’s the other thing is sometimes people don’t realize most of the stuff is living inside all of us, right?

It’s our good soldiers are good suppressors in charge and working it out because I think people think like you’re going to catch the stuff it’s or, you know, my genetics. It’s like, well, I think it’s a lot of it’s already, you know, in there and. Right. And

[02:07:55] Dr. Sabine Hazan: you go through all of that in the book. I’m a big believer that everything happens to teach you a lesson.

We’re on this planet to learn a lesson. And I think we need to look back into ourselves and say, what was the purpose? You know, and you asked me before, what changed, you know, in, in 20, 30, 40 years of my life since I was 25, right? What changed? What really changed in me is really the acceptance of looking back.

at mistakes that I’ve made or things that I’ve made and saying maybe that the purpose there was this was the purpose like think about it the mishaps that happened in my life it had they not happened I would not be here speaking and having the courage to speak on COVID right so I think every action leads to a reaction and eventually this is a training that you get and you have to kind of go back and say I’m a huge believer of God, obviously, so I’m always like looking into myself and saying, What were you trying to teach me, God?

Right? What was I supposed to learn that I didn’t do? You know, one of the reasons I stepped in and didn’t look at the financials when I took on these clinical trials with COVID was because I knew God would kind of hold my hand and I wouldn’t be starving for one. I mean, he’s given me so much in my life to begin with that, you know, I knew he was going to be there for me.

But also one of the things was really that faith that removed fear, essentially. And I think that understanding and saying, okay, You know, maybe he wouldn’t want me to do this. He wouldn’t, he would want me to go that way, right? And then when you start thinking that somebody’s watching you in your actions, your actions become different.

You all of a sudden go, maybe I shouldn’t go. Cause it’s so easy to deviate and buy. Like I think about it, I could have easily bought stocks in Moderna and Pfizer. instead of putting my money in the research, right? Right. But was that the right thing to do?

[02:09:58] Gabby: Yeah.

[02:09:58] Dr. Sabine Hazan: Or should I have continued in my path to see the microbiome?

And then, what a beautiful thing. to see the microbiome. What a beautiful, and I was saved, right? Because my family, you know, my, my fear that, you know, my family was no, no one, you know, and here’s the other greatest miracle. No one died on my shift.

[02:10:20] Gabby: No,

[02:10:21] Dr. Sabine Hazan: I lost no one in the pandemic. That was the power of God.

This case of the, of the cancer patient, I went on a whim giving him like, I mean, not on a whim, I researched the drugs that I wanted to combine and the, the products that I wanted to combine. And I saw what they were doing. And I kind of said, okay, you know what, maybe I’ll do this. But then what happened is in doing in jumping in the abyss, I helped this guy.

And that’s really faith. To say, and, and what, how I felt this pandemic was like, I know God’s going to use me to show the miracles, the miracle of the kid with autism who spoke, you know, the miracle of the Alzheimer’s patient who remembered the daughter’s date of birth, the miracle of this cancer patient, the miracle of the Tourette’s patient, the miracle of, you know, um, the patient with the seizures.

I knew that was going to be my, my way of showing the miracles. And then from showing the miracles.

And that’s why there’s a lot of, there’s a big movement now of doctors trying to understand, you know, that big movement of doctors saving lives, you know. When I posted my clinical trials on clinical trials.gov, April 3rd or fourth, you know, that was the every, we were number four and five clinical trials on clinical trials.gov for covid.

We put our protocol so fast into the FDA, the FDA approved it within 24 hours. And by the way, that’s for all those people that hate the FDA. I gotta say, what I saw during the beginning of the pandemic with the FDA was remarkable. The agent, who was a physician, called me at 3 o’clock in the morning, and, which was like 5 o’clock, you know, uh, I’m sorry, it was like 6 o’clock, you know, uh, wherever she was in Maryland or D.

C., and she said, Dr. Hayes, in your protocols approved, move to the next, uh, go ahead, start treating patients, right? What that was remarkable work and and those agents were dedicated. Um, you know, but of course there’s corruption and every somebody’s paid on the other side to kind of say, slow down, he’s in, you know what I mean?

Uh, but you know, this is the, this is the worst we’re in. That’s the way it is.

[02:12:42] Gabby: Yeah.

[02:12:42] Dr. Sabine Hazan: But ultimately, you know, I think if you step into the fire, if your aim is to help people, God is going to help you. I learned that during the Woolsey fire because I evacuated my house during the Woolsey fire and all my neighbors stayed behind hosing their houses.

And I, my, my family didn’t want me to go back in. They’re like, let the house burn. Don’t worry about it. Save your life, blah, blah. And you saw the news, right? It was like, Oh yeah, people were, you know, Oh, Malibu is burning. And, and I, at six o’clock in the morning, I, cause I was on an email blast. One of my neighbors had a generator.

And all my neighbors were like basically home hosing and they were missing generators. They were missing water. They were, they didn’t have masks. So at six o’clock in the morning, I take my car, I get all the masks from all the hospitals. I’m driving through the gate as a physician. And I basically, they let me through because I was a physician.

back into Malibu. And all of a sudden, I saw a different story than what was in the media. Malibu, yes, was burning. Some houses were burning, but the majority wasn’t. And they needed help. They needed water, they needed supplies. And so on Facebook, I went crazy. And I said, we need waters, we need this. And then you saw what happened to Malibu.

You know, people were coming from the boats with water. Oh, yeah. People were coming with, you know, and Malibu stood together as a community. and fought the fires and saved their houses. My, my community, you know, my area were about 90 houses and they were fine.

[02:14:16] Gabby: Yeah.

[02:14:17] Dr. Sabine Hazan: Maybe one or two burned down. So, um, You know, that was God helping me because I had the courage to step in.

I always believe that if you’re going to do the right thing in helping mankind, you’re going to be fine.

[02:14:28] Gabby: Yeah.

[02:14:28] Dr. Sabine Hazan: So, and if, if that doesn’t mean

[02:14:30] Gabby: it’s going to be

[02:14:31] Dr. Sabine Hazan: easy, it’s not easy. It’s, it’s, it’s really hard. It’s really a challenge. And, but what choices do we have? Right? You have a choice. You could do nothing and think about yourself.

[02:14:44] Gabby: Yeah. Or you

[02:14:44] Dr. Sabine Hazan: could do something and help mankind.

[02:14:47] Gabby: Yeah.

[02:14:47] Dr. Sabine Hazan: Right?

[02:14:49] Gabby: So if I have, let’s say I was diagnosed with Parkinson’s or cancer, but I have C. diff.

[02:14:55] Dr. Sabine Hazan: It buys you into a fecal transplant. Okay, just want to

[02:14:57] Gabby: check. Yes. Okay. Dr. Hazen, thank you. And the book is Let’s Talk Shit. I highly suggest it. It’s actually weirdly easy to read.

Even though it’s highly medical, you broke it down and made it really achievable and very clear. And I really appreciate it. And it’s also if people are like, I don’t have time to read. It’s on Audible. And um, And it’s just one more bit of information that I think I am, I talk about two things, my mitochondria, my gut, like those two, I mean, obviously mental health is of course, but just dealing with those two.

So I really appreciate your work and I’m excited, um, to see what the next five and 10 years do you have the energy?

[02:15:40] Dr. Sabine Hazan: Yeah, I think so.

[02:15:41] Gabby: Okay. I

[02:15:41] Dr. Sabine Hazan: think so. You know,

[02:15:43] Gabby: we’re going to have to, I do too. Yeah, I think you have the energy. Yeah,

[02:15:46] Dr. Sabine Hazan: I have the energy. Especially if you get me, if you challenge me. Yeah, exactly.

My husband always says, you know, if you want Sabine to do anything, just challenge her. That

[02:15:56] Gabby: she can’t.

[02:15:56] Dr. Sabine Hazan: Yeah, just say she can’t and then she’ll be like, It’s working. It has worked so far. And if I don’t have the energy, I’m sure others will take on. You know, my spirit and my, my motion to keep it going, but, uh, I think, yeah, I have the energy.

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About Dr. Sabine Hazan